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Muddy Waters

Ok I hear a lot of growers saying place a little plant in the ground, 1 true leaf going,get it to the hoop house.Well I have planted Big plants in the bag as I believe Ron has done to. I was talking to Pete V from cheese land.He said he thinks it prevents root damage & shock to the little feller or gal if you prefer.So that being said. Why not get your hoop house ready soil warmed up in 3 days like Mike says. Then we put the seed as soon as it cracks the shell right in the hoop house?

Any thoughts The plant would never get shocked?

I like a deeper root system I think a so called ROOT bound plant would do exactly that. Get the roots down deeper from the get go.Tom Beachy has a theory about shallow root system causing a lot of leaf damage in the heat of the summer.So what are your thoughts people?

Dont be shy! If you get a black eye? It will heal LOL

3/22/2019 5:50:28 AM

Morgantown, WV

I like the idea of a deep root system versus shallow, but if you're talking about planting a young seed prior to the first true leaf, why not just direct seed and let the tap root travel unmolested?

The biggest disadvantage I see to direct sowing, is that you don't get to choose which direction the main vine travels. If you're planting as soon as it cracks open, that difference is negated.

I've been using Rootmaker pots for a few years now. They're similar to the fabric air pots but don't dry out nearly as quickly. If you want to learn more about root branching and keeping roots from circling in pots, check out the system Dr. Karl Whitcomb developed.

https://rootmaker.com/rootmaker-system

3/22/2019 6:41:39 AM

Alex, IN

Has anyone ever investigated how deeply our giants root in the patch? If I can only till down 8 inches, the majority of the nutrients we add reside in those top 8 inches, how deep do the roots actually go?

If they are happy and have the water and nutrition they need I would assume they tend to remain fairly shallow. If they are running really deep then we are stressing the plants and reducing our size potential. Every stress we add further limits our size potential. I want the plants to be lazy, grow roots to get what they need, and get fat. Not a good goal for people, but that is our goal with the pumpkins.

3/22/2019 6:47:26 AM

aurora, IL

I have noticed that over the years that I have grown giants is in the heat of summer the plants that have a deeper root system are less stressed. When a plant has a shallow root system the plant will always wilt in the heat and would have to be watered more on a daily basis.

3/22/2019 8:25:43 AM

Menomonie, WI (mail@gr8pumpkin.net)

Root depth will depend on oxygen levels in the soil, and density. If you have a clay base soil the depth will be shallow.

3/22/2019 11:16:22 AM

Hopedale Ohio

If it ain't broke don't fix it. I like 3 leaf. Hey Bubba, email me back sometime before I buy some atomic juice. Thanks, Rick

3/22/2019 12:10:20 PM

Little-TON - Colorado

Joe Ailts had a display up at the BIG SHOW. Hope he chimes in on how deep that tap root went....over 30".... Joe!

3/22/2019 12:39:02 PM

Anamosa, IA BPIowegian@aol.com

I have used 5 peat pots for years. When I dig up the stump in the gall, the roots went right through them. No problem.

Last year I started experimenting with larger plastic pots. I found that if the roots haven't totally bound up the potting soil, it breaks up and breaks roots when you plant. Does that hurt? I don't know. I will probably plant some both ways this year. The big advantage I see to bigger pots in my cold valley is that I can start seeds earlier and not be so far behind other growers in May and June.

3/22/2019 5:39:20 PM

Midway, UT

In a “one-of-a-kind” research project in 1927, John Weaver and William Brunder, botanists at the University of Nebraska, grew many different vegetable crops and, over time, excavated and mapped the course of the root systems. They published their work in a book titled “Root Development of Vegetable Crops,” published by McGraw-Hill Company, New York. To my knowledge, no one since has attempted such a difficult task.

Vines of ‘Small Sugar’ pumpkin were about 16 feet long at maturity and the top 12 inches of soil were filled with roots. The taproot of mature pumpkins grew 6 feet deep and had 10 or more lateral branches that extensively branched outward for 5 to 17 feet or more. Many of these lateral roots were 2 to 4 feet long and all complexly and minutely rebranched, forming a “wonderfully efficient root complex”. The second and third feet of soil were also thoroughly filled with roots, with the fourth foot of soil containing many vertically descending roots. Plant size of pie pumpkins, like ‘Small Sugar’, may not be as large and vigorous as the jack-o-lantern types. It is probable that the root systems of larger pumpkins such as Atlantic Giants may be more extensive than those reported in this book.

3/22/2019 6:05:03 PM

Muddy Waters

Why Mikkal would running deep stress them? I dont understand?

3/22/2019 8:36:25 PM

Syracuse, NY

Idea 1.---Surround the little plant with a large peat pot, or cardboard for that matter---already IN the soil in the greenhouse, as soon as you KNOW beyond a doubt which weigh the plant will grow, you could turn the big pot however you want to, yet still allow the plant to grow for as long as possible before finalizing its position; you could not allow the roots to grow into the soil or you'd damage them in this process---this'd be similar to a turret on a battleship, locking-onto a target by turning accordingly and 'letting loose'. perhaps a biodegradeable 'tube' within another - once both are removed, you could fill in the gap with super-Mycorrhizaed potting mix, as though pouring concrete, etc. the concern right now is what to do about the 'BOTTOM of the barrel'...

Idea 2.---grow your seedling supper-leggy and plant it however deeply you want your root system to start out at. i think the roots will grow where they are going to anyway, yes, depending on the depth of the tilled soil, the frequency and VOLUME of each watering and...i'm outta

3/23/2019 3:24:36 AM

Syracuse, NY

lol---...ideas, i guess. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

3/23/2019 3:25:50 AM

Syracuse, NY

oh, yeah, plant the seedling 90 degrees from 'normal' and then any necessary turning of it will only be half as much.
also, that super-leggy seedling can have the cotyledons AND the 1st true leaf pointed patchward and/or laid-into the soil at a 45-degree incline...
Man, I am READY!
Wait, I just drove home in a virtual SNOWBANK!
later---eg

3/23/2019 3:32:51 AM

Central Illinois

root development of a pumpkin

https://www.soilandhealth.org/wp-content/uploads/01aglibrary/010137veg.roots/010137ch33.html

3/23/2019 8:44:43 AM

Bloomington, IN USA

I have always been super conservative & protective of the rootball of my plants.
I start the seeds in 3” cow pots.
When the roots are just beginning to breach the walls, I place it in 6” cowpot.
I plant it outside before the roots have breached the walls of the larger cowpot ==> no trauma to the rootball at all.
I transplant my maters out in 5” cowpots but skip the 3” transfer.

3/25/2019 2:53:45 PM

Alex, IN

Here is where I am coming from Mark, and its just a concept I have been considering.

Our goal is to grow the largest pumpkin. Growing roots deep in search of water and nutrients expends a lot of energy from the plant.

Think about a tree, if you did a hole for a tree and fertilizer the soil just in that hole the tree will still grow but it will not grow roots out of the fertilizer concentration area.

Now view our plants this way. We are not growing a plant that needs to search for nutrients, we are not growing a plant that needs to go deep to find water to survive. If I am giving it all it needs within the top 8 inches of soil why would I want it to grow roots to find things it does not need. I want the plant to take the energy it would of expended in a survival effort and redirect this energy into fruit production.

Now it is vital in this theory to have your soil nutrition correct and to maintain good soil moisture. If you fail to do this you could be set up for failure.

Hopefully that makes sense.

As for root bound in the pots, I am unsure of how much it affects plant growth. I like to have a pot full of root when I plant so the root ball stays intact. If it falls apart the damage done to the roots is not good in my opinion.

3/25/2019 3:20:18 PM

Syracuse, NY

No offense, please, but I'm pretty sure that the roots of a plant or tree extend out to the edge of the foliage and beyond, regardless of how far out or deep the original planting hole is made to be. Otherwise, we'd be making a hole 4' x 4' and pouring everything in the hole itself rather than fertilizing/tending to the entire growing area; Joel Holland depicted in his most-recent video at least one wandering root that went far and beyond the expected distance otherwise; we have no control beyond if we were to entrap the plant in an underground 'pool' of sorts and fill it in with the soil---even then, epic-sized root-boundedness!
Additionally, let's not be 'that person' who runs around the office making everyone turn out the lights when they're not being used, but right after that, goes and gets a cup of coffee from a 1500-watt coffee maker...left on 24/7; just my hurried, 'MHO'---sorry---eg

3/27/2019 9:36:28 AM

Grittyville, WA

Whatever Mike says. I want to try direct seeding. Had roots out 20 ft from the stump. But I think moisture stress has more to do with plant and root health than the dimensions of the root zone.

3/27/2019 10:06:24 PM

Alex, IN

I am just discussing ideas. I know the plants will grow a massive root zone regardless of what I give them. I am trying to point out the difference. In commercial production you may want the plants to be stressed a little which will make them develop a larger/deeper root system. In the giants we want as little stress as possible. I mean look at what we already do.

Every stress a plant endures, whether small or large impacts the final production potential of the plant.
Think of it like this; we start with a genetic potential of the seed we plant at 3000 pounds. Each stress the plant encounters takes weight off of that total. Insect stress here, 50 pounds, heat stress there, 200 pounds, and so on. By the end of the growing season we have can trim off 1500 or more pounds of weight potential throughout the growing season.

Back to Mark's original question, does being root bound hamper or improve the rooting of the plants. I would venture to say the answer is not yet known. Who's up for a research project?

3/28/2019 4:17:17 PM

Colorado

If the new roots are pulling in more water than the back of the plant then theyre prob pulling in the majority of nutrients. If thats the case then theyll be some strategy to have new rooting all the way into september to grow maximus giantus slunger

3/28/2019 8:31:45 PM

Grittyville, WA

I really like your thinking SmallTownUSA.

I've dug up the stumps at the end of the season and those which were root bound you can still see the shape of the original pot 5 months later. So I am of the opinion that the root structure may be permanently affected. I would rather have the roots spread out and develop naturally... it doesnt seem right to pull a stump and still see the shape of the pot it was transplanted from.

3/29/2019 2:13:44 AM