From

Location

Message

Date Posted

Colo Springs CO

Having the ability to have such a seed to use as a pure line breeder would open all kinds of possibilities as well. If two such lines can be created, both from different backgrounds, the two plants could create some real hybrid vigorous seeds. This seems like a project which everyone benefits from in the long run, as it should get us over the 3,000 pound barrier. At worst, there would be a seed which everyone could grow that will all grow 2,000 pound plus fruit.

I've talked over the idea with Scott Holub, and he will be following closely how things work out. Using only the top genetics from a strain is key to keep advancing the possibilities of growing larger fruit. More self pollinating methods should be considered by more growers to advance standard breeding by utilizing selection methods. There are two ways to accomplish the goal of having true breeding genetics. I cannot start such a project without your help, so please keep it in mind and consider donating a cutting to this project come fall. I will post something in fall to see what kind of help or interest others have with this experiment. Best wishes and good luck to everyone in 2018 !

3/23/2018 2:44:04 PM

On a cliff in the desert

Would a Tobeck 1526, 1836, or 2002 be ok? They are selfed 2145s.

3/23/2018 4:56:27 PM

Arizona

Are you saying use 2 clones from the same plant breed them "sib". Then grow that seed out. Get 2 more clones from that plant.. repeat. Versus using the same plant selfed from seed.. repeat to f8?

3/23/2018 5:22:32 PM

Oak Grove, Mn

One of my pumpkin spots should be occupied by the winner of the early growth of an 1875 Mendi (2145 x sibb) and the 1971.5 Barlow(2145 x self). Right now I am betting on the Mendi...it was weighed only about 73 DAP. If one of these grows well, I certainly can send you a clone sample.

3/23/2018 6:08:14 PM

Middleton Ma

Wow sounds Frankenstein’ ish

3/23/2018 8:13:32 PM

Central Illinois

I think he means to always keep a mother clone, breed her children, grandchildren, and great-grandchildren back to her,she would be many years old

3/24/2018 9:26:05 AM

Colo Springs CO

That is the idea. Cross the original plant back into the offspring of the plant, again and again... there is varying data and opinions about weather or not self crossing causes "genetic depression" in pumpkins. What that is, is a drop off of the vigorous traits from the first generation plant. This supposedly happens most at 3-4 generations. It has not yet been done using the same original plant repeatedly to determine what that outcome would bring. I believe this only will assure us of a true breeding seed with no drop off for vigor. If you research all the self pollination offspring and what the weights of those fruits were, you will find many more lower weights each generation generally. There are some cases which the weights went up (the 1844 squash and a couple from the 1725), so this is a gray area of genetics we just don't know enough about yet. It will be more clear in time as more growers produce more self crosses. Im looking to perhaps reduce the time needed to make a true breeding genetic, without loosing original vigor.

3/24/2018 1:47:12 PM

Colo Springs CO

Scott will add more on this I'm sure after he returns. He has theories and suggestions using selective self pollination methods to increase overall weights. We both have the same goals, we have different methods which we believe might get us there.

Im all for anyone who grows anything over 2,000 pounds from a 2145 offspring as well. I would have loved to have a Mendi or Tobeck clone. Id be growing one of those this season with the opportunity to cross it back with the plant that grew that seed. Ive done this before for a 3 year period but not with good genetics. Ive wanted to continue what I started, I've just been waiting for a plant worthy of cloning. I might wait forever if I have to find that seed to grow lol

3/24/2018 2:04:13 PM

Syracuse, NY

i would just keep an eye on the diaries as a whole (careful how you think that out loud, lol) and if any has an estimated weight of 2000-plus, well, there is one of your opportunities. Get 5 or six CUTTINGS (full-sized vines) on a 'pruning day', amongst several growers, for insurance! and permission, lol! "A candle loses nothing by lighting another." i would just hope he or she is a friend of yours, too. i have always read that inbred or genetic depression is not evident in AGs, as in the case of the 962 Willemse, from at least 4 generations of selfing back to the 674.5 Waterman.---eg

3/24/2018 4:20:55 PM

Colo Springs CO

nobody ever grew the 962?? Really ?How did we miss that? And nobody tried the 351 Wolf ? Imagine the possibilities... quad roots per single leaf, 16 "long stem into fruit, no air in pumpkin cavity because its a solid fruit, perfect orange color, leaves all perfect size and not overlapping other leaves. Could have been growing the next supergenetic, instead seeds are in a seed museum.

No evident reason to believe genetic depression in AGs is common. Although plenty of selfed seeds have not fared better than its creator, selfing with selection allows us to find what the high end of weights are by growing only the best self crosses. Growers should always try to self pollinate unless there is a specific cross in mind. We can do some fascinating, amazing things, over the next few years. Things will get interesting again at least.

3/26/2018 1:19:39 AM

Syracuse, NY

In response to MM: You mean like with my Sawtelle 666.6?
muh, huh, huh, ha, ha, ha, ha, ----ahem.
does a gallon glass jar qualify as a seed museum?
'cause, i have a few of those---if you are REALLY GOOD
at sprouting older seeds, and even if not, lol, man,
we should talk---pumpkinpal@msn.com---lessee, 962 X 1756?
one has to wonder, though and also, if a seed on the motherly side is already 'on the weigh up', is that an indication that something more can be done with it or not? like
(1057>1756>2145>2624)>3,000? i almost think (therefore i almost am, lol) that EVERY cross we make should be tried between TWO selfs, if and since each of them is primed to bust out of some channel they've been in for the last 1 to 4 or 5 generations. Jeez, that is the 2145; it is sinking in; so, 1756 X 962 instead. probably saying the words of others, but mine are: The more selfed the better! Which coincides with Marc. I've been collecting and buying seeds for 17 years. Marc, if not for THIS season, definitely for next, i'm sure i would have seeds of interest for your perusal. EG

3/26/2018 3:27:58 AM

Colo Springs CO

I have no doubts selfing and selecting best offspring then selfing again and so on,is best way to grow big fruit, and perhaps isolate some good traits and breed out the bad. Those are very interesting combinations.... 1756 X 962... anyone ever grow those seeds?

3/27/2018 12:55:03 AM

Syracuse, NY

since that cross came outta MY head, probably no(!)
but, now is the time to create such crosses, eh?
there is no 1756 X 962 that i know of, or the reverse.
i'm just thinking that if a seed is growing BIGGER AND BIGGER pumpkins each 'round', what if it is hit with another that is doing the same, without selfing IT by that SAME SELF, starting initially with seeds that have or are already producing whoppers in their own era;
so, (SELFED X 3+) x (OTHER SELFED X 3+)=SUPERSELFHYBRID. maybe once a plateau is reached is a good time to THEN incorporate the 'New Blood', as above.
SO, if nothing is grown any bigger from the 2145 than now: "Geez, guess we shoulda SuperHybrided sooner", lol, but BLTN (better late than never). Or, now is the time.
i grew the 706.5 Willemse in '02 and poll'd that fruit (385 est. '02 Gerry) with the 801 Black. I may grow that this year for fun. If not you, then I should grow the 1756 and the 962 and the 385 and walk the walk. There ARE
other seeds than the 962 that are all the (706.5 X SELF),
such as 701, 826 and 834.8; type-in 834.8 and there are ancient posts, including yours, about this very similar topic. i dunno WHAT i'll be planting, but, old seeds are JUST as good to me as any, IF they can grow over 912.5;
so, EVERYTHING looks good to me! please re-read my previous post AND this one, here---eg

3/27/2018 7:36:29 AM

Colo Springs CO

There are some seeds which made the perfect cross from one pair of seeds, but did not fair as well using the same seeds in a remake attempt. The reason being is the recombination gene pool is different in plants which haven't attained true breeding status. Whenever this eventually happens, aqnd possibly several true breeding strains have been created, then crossing two 7 or 8 generation strains together should produce various results. Larger fruit may be one of many forms of hybridization, but the main goals should focus more on key quality traits that would lead to larger fruit weights. These very short stem fruit would sure be easier to manage if growers bred to improve this trait and eventually managed to alter todays main seed characteristics. There should be a preplanned goal in mind, and breeding and selection will achieve these goals. I am curious how selfing with the initial clone each generation will fix traits compared to standard self crossing. It is this idea I would like to test out. It should be possible to create a true breeding genetic a couple generations quicker by pollinating each generation with the same identical plant being grown. I would be curious to see what results would be obtained using that breeding technique. The difficult part is shipping cuttings, and disease eradication once a suitable cutting has been determined.

3/28/2018 12:01:24 AM

Middleton Ma

Can I ask who mad MAN mark is I don’t know a lot of names

3/28/2018 9:17:25 PM

Middleton Ma

Oh my god how could you have over looked the 193 Wolf 02

3/28/2018 9:41:00 PM

Western NY

You guys remember more of my seeds than I do, lol

3/29/2018 8:11:13 AM

NE Arkansas

Just graft the cutting to any AG as rootstock then once it heals you can ship it. After you receive the grafted clone you can take a cutting from it anytime

3/30/2018 12:51:35 AM