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Grittyville, WA

Looking for discussion here about questions that need to be answered to move pumpkin growing forward.

Any ideas that could be tested in the patch?? It seems like genetic mapping/testing would move things forward but that requires a laboratory. I assume no one has that capability? So... what else are you going to try to learn in your patch this year... How are you going to figure it out?

Brandon

3/21/2018 10:44:01 PM

New Berlin, PA

I have read/heard a lot about how no-till in production agriculture is improving soil health, how tillage causes OM to decompose faster and wreaks havoc on natural beneficial bacteria and fungi. How no-till improves soil structure, etc. I often wonder, but won't be trying it, if AGs could be grown on no-till soil, and vines could be buried (covered) with a compost mix that over time would build soil OM, especially when combined with cover crops. Anyway, just an idea/question that I wonder about.

3/22/2018 7:44:00 AM

Grittyville, WA

side by side... till and no till comparison. Good one. I have to say that earthworms and glyphosate are both powerful tools... Can you hear a new country song, 'she thinks my earthworms and glyphosate are sexy' ok never mind . Other than that... great idea.

3/22/2018 10:02:24 AM

New Berlin, PA

No-till soils, especially those that were recently tilled, will take some time (years) to see the soil structure re-build. So, it would take more than one year to do a fair comparison.

3/22/2018 10:39:01 AM

Grittyville, WA

No till could work well for some people. I suspect some folks would get better results, and some would not. Great idea!

3/22/2018 12:11:37 PM

Lebanon, Oregon

Correct me if I am wrong. The 2624.6 Willemijns was grown by Mathias after he used a broadfork (no till). I though I would give that a try last year and had the best garden ever with tomato's. I had used a bunch of mychorrhizae products in the previous years. So I am out there using the broadfork yesterday and with every break of the soil I am seeing white as snow mycorrhizae everywhere. Is this a good thing? Has the mycorrhizae I seeded the previous years now everywhere in my garden? It is a lot of work and slow, and would be a lot easier to just drop the tiller, but I like what I am seeing. I am adding new amended soil anyway and will just rake it in.

3/22/2018 2:36:36 PM

Colorado

I don't think mycho is that visible-its a very fine hair that they have to stain to see on photos and microscope slides.it also would be attached to a plant root to be viable

3/22/2018 2:43:46 PM

Grittyville, WA

Willemijns has had incredible results. As far as we know, he is the best grower in the world... (unless someone wants to prove otherwise!) and he did make a comment along those lines of not wrecking his soil with a tractor.

3/22/2018 3:11:13 PM

Grittyville, WA

My understanding...He has very good soil to start with and he believes a tractor would compact it.

3/22/2018 3:17:41 PM

Grittyville, WA

Any other unanswered questions? Any more discussion about no till?

3/22/2018 3:45:54 PM

Lebanon, Oregon

Thanks cojoe, just trying to justify myself working the soil by hand in the wind and rain.

3/22/2018 4:23:41 PM

stoughton WI

Speaking from experience in my patch, on some soils if you do no till and soil has become compacted through out the year, then you run a 10 ton tractor over it, it will become more compacted. Which could then lead to anorobic soil. If the roots can't get air they will start to die off.I don't see how no till would be beneficial at least in growing giants. If you have a field close by that does no till, check and see how easily it is to dig a hole by hand.granted tilling does kill worms and beneficials, but in our instance they ate fairly easy to replace. Just my opinion.

3/22/2018 7:45:08 PM

Indiana

No till is good, no till plus a cover crop is better. Keep something living in your soil at all times. Example, a fence row that has been taken out and is now farmed will have a great looking crop on it for years. Y you ask. Because that soil hasn't been disturbed and has had a living plant on it at all times. There are many options for cover crops ether single species or a cocktail cover crop. The more the species growing together the better. Just my experience. Remember what works for me might not work for you. Everyone's soil is different. I've used a combination of Tillage Radish, clover, buckwheat,sun hemp, Sudan grass and cereal rye. The cereal rye and clover make it though the winter everything else dies. Always something living though. Iam no record holder, still learning every year. Just trying to improve my soil while growing pumpkins.

3/22/2018 9:02:23 PM

Upa Creek, MO

Great post, enjoy the reading side on the tilling. I’m stuck as of now and literally hand Turn thousands of square feet manually each year. I m old and try to enjoy the workout.

Also, a wise man once said, listen to CoJoe.

3/22/2018 10:49:08 PM

Eugene,OR

Jack Larue used to do no till. I don't think he does it anymore.

3/22/2018 10:49:51 PM

Anamosa, IA BPIowegian@aol.com

I had a lot of experience with no-till, working as a soil conservation technician for NRCS for 30 years. One thing I learned is that monoculture does not work well with notill. Leaving the crop residue on the surface promotes disease in the next crop. Crop rotation helps a lot. I would recommend at least 1 year between pumpkin crops.

The way we add compost, manure, etc. to our patches, I don't think notill would be that beneficial. The biggest advantage of notill is increasing organic matter. We are getting our organic matter way above what notill would without the added materials. And tillage introduces oxygen that feeds the bacteria that break down some of the organic matter. That releases more nutrients for the plants to use.

I do practice minimum tillage. I try to limit it to turning the soil with a fork and smashing the clods. Then one pass with a tiller a couple days later after the worms have had a chance to go deeper. I do this a little at a time ahead of vine growth. Weeds end up being a cover and green manure crop. I have seen a huge increase in earthworms and the holes in the soil. My soil gets softer and more mellow each year. If you till it up fine 2 or more times a year you mess up the soil structure and get crusting after rains. And I do use cover crops, mostly brassicas and oats. I quit using rye because it gets rust fungus and I think that is affecting my long gourds. I am now putting about a third of my garden in mustard followed by other cover crops every year. And I try to limit glyphosate use to just along my electric fences.

3/22/2018 10:50:50 PM

Torrance, Ca.

I've always tested my solutions being fed through the leaves and roots to make sure the ec is where it should be and not to lite or heavy.
This year I've purchased and ec meter that rests in the soil so I can keep an eye on the levels below ground.

So the unanswered question would be, do I really know what I'm doing...lol

About the tilling, like Rick said,, with all the tractor work and compression my patch gets tilling is my only option for nice fluffy soil.

3/22/2018 10:53:41 PM

Pittsburgh, PA

My plan is to run my new subsoiler through the pumpkin patch, then spread my organics and til it in. Once soil tests come back add needed amendments and lightly til a second time. Wallah - new world record. Hahahaha

3/22/2018 11:05:25 PM

stoughton WI

I forgot, I only till once a year and add plenty of beneficials. And I'll be out worm hunting after it rains.

3/22/2018 11:15:22 PM

Syracuse, NY

evidence to ME, anyway, that Myco can be visibly-evident:

http://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=60166

i may go out tomorrow or very soon and dig up a bit of what good SOIL i see and conduct the same experiment. i had been told even back then that Myco could not be seen but even as i wait for seeds to sprout like in my post, fine, white, hairy structures like 'cobwebs' form on the surface of my SS mix and of course, they are not that. Once Myco were attached to the roots, yes, it'd be hard to distinguish from the root hairs and debris; here's a related article, for reading (only-down-to) the next title "Ectomycorrhizae", as that only pertains to trees and what-not.
http://website.nbm-mnb.ca/mycologywebpages/NaturalHistoryOfFungi/Mycorrhizae.html
there is also a part about the damage to Myco from tilling; i am conflicted always about it, but when i say "till it in, till it in", maybe that should only be ONCE, on new soil or every few years in established, WITH Myco 5-10 lbs.+ per plant's area being incorporated at that time. >>>ever heard a landscaper detailing WHY they use Myco in the first place to revitalize depleted soils??? i think this is the year for me to simply rake off the debris (noting Iowegian's comment about this and rotation) on a low-priority patch and use Myco therein to bury the vines only, possibly utilizing the underground Myco that is already there. next, let's look into determining the level of Mycorrhizal activity in each of our own patches...hmmm...
i can never NOT comment about this topic, it seems, lol. eg

3/23/2018 12:37:12 AM

Bethlehem CT

In my opinion this guy was the best no-till grower ever
http://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=211862

3/23/2018 7:23:50 AM

Grittyville, WA

Interesting...! Thanks, good input!

Any other ideas... unknowns... things to wonder about?

3/24/2018 12:54:18 AM

Whidbey Island

Just got a broad fork. Love it. Nice way to break up the subsoil/topsoil interface and it doesn't take that much work. I may not even till this year. If I had a big patch and a tractor, then a subsoiler might be worth while....

3/24/2018 10:14:56 PM

Grittyville, WA

I think a broad fork may be easy to use on some soils and not on others. For me there is a big difference between spring and summer. When the soil dries in the summer, the moderate effort required in spring becomes immoderate...
But the silver lining is then I could use a tractor... ?? Because it seems like the ground would be hard enough in summer to withstand the weight. I can’t verify this... It’s just a thought.

3/25/2018 1:10:08 AM

Grittyville, WA

Here is a good read about soil compaction...

http://www.farmwest.com/node/961

3/25/2018 1:15:59 AM

Rhode Island

no till = no thrill
agree with rick j. you can always replace but you cant expect movement in packed soil.
we have always used tillers and sub soilers with much success over the years--especially during spring when turning in cover crops,etc.
pap

3/27/2018 11:49:18 AM

New Berlin, PA

Thanks for all the input. Like I said something I've wondered about, but WON'T be trying.

3/27/2018 12:02:33 PM

Mn

mob grazing....that's the ticket

3/27/2018 1:35:53 PM

Pittsburgh, PA

I have a question about Perlite. Considering purchasing some to incorporate into my patch. My soil is mostly clay garbage but trying to improve it with organics annually. Thinking the perlite mixed in around the stump area might help keep that area dryer and less compacted. I’ve seen others use it. Is it worth the expense?

3/27/2018 9:15:15 PM

Grittyville, WA

I’d say if it’s just being applied in the stump area you could afford to experiment with it and/ or other alternatives. Grain chaffe...? My local hardware store was nice enough to let me buy a yard of sand last year and haul it away in five gallon buckets. It worked out to about a dollar per 5 gal bucket. Good luck...

3/27/2018 11:31:12 PM

Grittyville, WA

Let me see if I can tie in another idea. Question: what if you could engineer your soil to not need walking boards? For example, if you go to a playground with an adequate amount of bark under the kids playsets, or if you have ever walked or driven on a hog-fuel road, you would realize that a soil could also theoretically be that squishy, deep, with pore space... yet retain its shape when walked on. If I had sufficient deep till and tractor capabilities, could I engineer a soil that was light and porous and foot-traffic indestructible? I think so. Kids throwing up gotta go.

3/28/2018 2:47:34 AM

50 Acres

My only question at this time of year. When are the gods of winter going to leave and quit this snow crap .

3/28/2018 7:48:44 AM

Essex, UK

I added perlite to my stump areas last year, approx 6'x6' square area. A 100 litre bag cost about £20 and was enough to do three squares. Seemed to help loosen the clay up. Have considered doing a larger area this year but it's been so wet I haven't been able to get on the ground and see how it's behaved over the winter.

3/28/2018 12:29:07 PM

Virginia

Has anyone ever tried to keep the tap roots alive at the pumpkins stem and feeding them kind of hydrophonically? I would think it would be a direct feeding into the pumpkin itself.

3/28/2018 3:19:28 PM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

A few years ago I actually experimented with no-till combined with a layer of wood chips on the surface. The good: My soil temp went up and down between 70 and 80 degrees each day, whereas the bare soil would vary between the high 50s and about 95. The bad: It was my worst year weight wise for as long as I've been doing this. In soil like mine it may take 8 to 10 years to really start showing a benefit. None of us want to take that time, I don't think.

3/28/2018 4:15:54 PM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

Here is my question: How is it that everyone swears by myco when I just don't see it working for me? I've tried, but it shows no benefit, and could be hurting? I know I may be stepping on a lot of toes here, but I'm just seeking knowledge. How is something microscopic going to help something that weighs 1000+ pounds? How does it go from a bag of stuff to helping a plant in just a month or two? When plants have sufficient P, plants will reject the myco because they don't want to support the myco when they already have P. Myco only helps with the uptake of "unavailable" P, those things that must first break down first, bone meal, etc. In soil like mine (pH 8.0) things like bone meal with NEVER break down and remain unavailable. My point is that I'm highly skeptical with the usage of myco on high pH soils, or in any case where we till and add chemical P.

3/28/2018 4:23:27 PM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

Bob C, I've often thought about that question, and have experimented with a hydroponic type of setup at the end of a vine. Just let those roots that form drink up that liquid. But I haven't seen it consume enough liquid to think that it does anything.

3/28/2018 4:25:35 PM

stoughton WI

Hi cliff, im no expert just my opinions from alot of stuff I've read. Some mychorizae likes a p.h. of 7 or below (not sure which ones) but it also needs air to help it thrive it also has a symbiotic relationship with bacterias (there are quite a few types of mychorizae, of which we use very few) I know big kins can be grown in higher p.h. but it may lock up certain nutrients which will effect certain things.and for as much time and effort we put into these things, how can it hurt.you may want to add some elemental sulfur to help lower your p.h.

3/28/2018 6:04:24 PM

Grittyville, WA

Yes I think growing at 8.0 ph it would be a different soil ecology and unless you lower the ph the things that work for everyone else and the nutrient additions that would help would be different. Are you in one of the alfalfa growing areas... I thought potatoes don’t like it that sweet... just curious :)

3/29/2018 12:35:08 AM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

My soil has been tested at 7.3, 7.5, and 8.0 was the most recent one. My irrigation water is usually about 7.6. This year I'd like to water from a tank and first get it down to 6.0 before applying it.

Lowering pH is not as simple as raising it. About 7 years ago I bought a ton (literally, 2000 pounds, a "tote") of elemental sulfur and worked it in over the next few years. It doesn't help in the long run. The free lime just eats it up and you're back where you started.

Potatoes are successful here because the wind can't ruin something that is underground.

3/29/2018 12:24:07 PM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

It's been said that the plant must give up 20 to 30% of it's resources to support myco. So the plant accepts this tradeoff to be able to reach more P. But, if you give it all the P it needs, it rejects the myco because it's no longer a good tradeoff. (It's amazing how all of this works, if it is really true.) But think of it, do we want the plant to give 20% of it's sugars just to support the myco? It may be, however, that the giant pumpkin plant has energy to burn, and so it continues to accept this tradeoff longer than other plants. ;-) Maybe.

3/29/2018 12:37:43 PM

Team Canuckle Heads

The myco gives the plant 80% of it's phophorus 60% copper 25% of nitrogen and zinc and 10% potassium. According to Lowenfels "Teaming With Nutrients"book anyway.

3/29/2018 12:52:19 PM

NE Arkansas

@ Pap - how deep do you til and subsoil?

3/29/2018 1:28:44 PM

Grittyville, WA

Cliff, I don’t know how you are going to lower your water to 6.0 but I do know aluminum is very toxic to plants at or below 6.0 and I can’t imagine the wisdom of using aluminum sulfate on a pumpkin... but that’s one of the options. I bet most any organic-matter teas are slightly acidic. Anyhow I do really like the idea of worrying more about the ph of the water than that of the soil.

3/30/2018 12:56:31 AM

Syracuse, NY

I'll agree that if Phosphorous is high in the soil already it is compounded by Mycorrhiza BECAUSE Mycorrhiza is most-effective at retrieving it from the soil where it may be otherwise lacking in some soils. if it is high to BEGIN with, it may be too much of a good thing. so, you just don't need to throw down 10-80-10 and tell Myco to just (literally) live with it---i'm the last grower to ever wanna pay for a soil test, lol, but if i did, the 1st thing i'd strive for would be a pH of 6.8 to 7, and then, balanced soil, right? and then, Mycorrhizae in there to help ALL my roots along. it can't hurt! lessee, at 8 bucks a pound X 5-10 max lbs. per plant plus a vigorous effort to get the pH down to near or at 7? probably about as much as any of us spent this past winter on SEEDS. SEEDS! has anyone ever seen the chart about nutrient uptake and the scale of pH from acid to alkaline? you can go here and pick one of dozens, but they all show the same thing: (drag/highlight the link, right-click and select 'Go to' if enabled):
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=soil+ph+uptake+scale&chips=q:soil+ph+uptake+scale,online_chips:nutrient+availability&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjw2v38opPaAhUMh-AKHe2sAlsQ4lYIJigA&biw=1280&bih=893&dpr=1
sorry for all that, lol, but now you can look at the pH you may have and see how on EITHER SIDE of 7, problems ensue. i know i have a high pH as well, like 7.3+ and yes, it was 7.8 many years ago, and i haven't checked it in a few years. i would not try to get my pH to 6 because that is just as bad going the other way. damn. now i gotta follow my own advice. If you know it, grow it! 'nuther article:

https://microbewiki.kenyon.edu/index.php/Mycorrhizae

i had never seen info about the plant giving anything up. you gotta spend money to make money! IF you make money, well, there you go! i really like that to-the-point article. good luck to you---eg---
now, about that 100-pounder seed...

3/30/2018 1:59:32 AM

Deer Park, WI

Cliff- have a look at this article regarding how humates can help unlock P at high pH:

https://humates.com/pdf/phosha.pdf

3/30/2018 11:42:47 AM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

Thanks. Yeah, my soil is very high in P and K, but if I examine 'how' my plants grow I conclude that the problem is P related, or perhaps zinc. Last year I stepped up my fertilizer big time and it helped. (For the first time my soil showed no issues with salts, so I went ahead with the ferts.)

I don't know how the acidification of the water is going to work yet. I do water through PVC pipes on the ground. As for aluminum, I've never actually seen aluminum sulfate. Around here we use ammonium sulfate. What I would do is first add whatever ferts are needed to the tank, which should lower the pH some, then add some acid to lower it to around 6.0. I've also added 11 yards of peat this year, so maybe that will also help.

3/30/2018 11:56:12 AM

Grittyville, WA

11 yards of peat — yes that should help. Sounds like you are trying and you have some good ideas... that’s the basic recipe for success...

3/31/2018 1:55:57 AM

aurora, IL

How much water does it take to grow a 1000 pound pumpkin? I would like to grow one that big someday. My biggest is 504 lbs.

3/31/2018 11:52:13 AM

Michigan,up North

gallon water weighs 8.3 so 8x125 1000,so 125 gallons right .

3/31/2018 12:31:13 PM

Oak Grove, Mn

i have read many studies of how high P will restrict Myco formation. This year I am going really heavy on microbiology. My question is what is the best base soil ratios I can get to optimize the micro strategy. Might take me a few years...but bacteria,fungi, protozoa, nematodes etc are my focus right now.

3/31/2018 12:39:46 PM

aurora, IL

I mean the Total amount of water throughout the season.

3/31/2018 12:44:49 PM

stoughton WI

Chrstopher, how much water you use depends alot on what your soil is like, if it's a sandy soil you will use more water than if it's a clay soil. I use between a 100 to 150 gals every other day on one plant.

3/31/2018 5:53:20 PM

Upa Creek, MO

To add on to Ricks post, climate is a huge factor as well. There’s no blanket answer for how much water one would require. A feller in Arizona would have a different requirement then a feller in West Tennessee vs a feller in Northern Michigan vs a feller in a greenhouse in Alaska. It’s not just soil, it’s everything that affects your soil 24 hours a day.

3/31/2018 9:53:20 PM

Grittyville, WA

bnot —Jutras grew his 2118 at about 200 ppm phosphorus I had some good results at approximately that level too. some tests would say that’s high... it’s grest u are testing lots of different ideas and learning. You could use that as reference line in the ranges you might test. Hope that helps.

3/31/2018 10:50:44 PM

Grittyville, WA

He also noted damage to the vine about five feet out from the base and solarization the previous year as possible factors in that great result. Sorry I don’t have the precise details just telling u what sort of remember

3/31/2018 11:00:17 PM

aurora, IL

My soil is moistly clay. A ballpark amount is fine. Rick the amount you used was about the same as what I used last year. Smallmouth you are right too, climate has a huge impact in the amount of water a plant needs. So, thank you guys for the help.

4/1/2018 8:11:20 AM

stoughton WI

Back to cliffs question about phosphorous, from what I have read about mychorizae. With high "P" levels, mychorizae may not colonize roots and actually may kill it.that is where having a well balanced soil comes into play, also high nitrogen may have a an adverse effect on mychorizae.

4/1/2018 3:57:58 PM

stoughton WI

this is was in one article i read, it may explain it better than i can.

One of the many benefits of mycorrhizal colonization
is that plant root uptake of phosphate—especially
“unavailable” forms—is greatly increased. Yet numerous
studies have demonstrated that phosphate fertilizer is deadly
to mycorrhizal associations. How can these two realities
coexist?
When a plant senses that its tissues or the soil contains
enough phosphate, it no longer needs its mycorrhizal
partner and so becomes less receptive to infection by mycorrhizal
spores. Phosphate amendment—especially soluble
forms—will inhibit mycorrhizal development on many
economically important plants. In non-agricultural systems,
such as grasslands, wetlands, and forests, phosphate addition
has a similar inhibitory effect on mycorrhizal infection. This
negative interaction has been experimentally demonstrated
and repeated in laboratories, greenhouses, nurseries, fields,
forests, and managed landscapes.
Often this inhibition is an issue of moderation. High
levels of soluble phosphate nearly always squelch mycorrhizal
activity, while lower levels are sometimes syngergistic
with mycorrhizae, especially if phosphate is unavailable
due to soil alkalinity. One form of this mineral—rock
phosphate—can be particularly difficult for plant roots to
mobilize. Mycorrhizae, however, can easily solubilize this
mineral and transport it to the plant roots. Since plant roots
perceive a lack of available phosphate, they are receptive to
mycorrhizal infection and subsequent uptake of this phosphate
source.
But, as with any other fertilizer, rock phosphate should
never be added to a landscape unless soil tests indicate a
nutrient deficiency. n

4/1/2018 4:08:46 PM

Pittsburgh, PA

@ jlindley I recall Ron or Pap posting pics last year and explaining they use a middle buster in their patch. They do not go as deep as a subsoiler. Those guys also use a rototiller on the back of their tractor and I believe most of them til about 6-8 inches deep. Hope this helps. Maybe Pap or Ron will jump in and explain further.

4/1/2018 11:36:12 PM

Grittyville, WA

Good info rick j ....thanks.

4/2/2018 2:31:45 AM