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Hickory Island, MI

About a month ago I ran across something that Steve Connolly (pumpconn) posted about the surprising plant size and distance from the stump that Joel Holland's 2363 was set. No specific details were mentioned however, and I was intrigued by what Mr. Holland did to make such a seasoned grower rethink his strategy for this upcoming season. If anyone could enlighten me about this plant, that would be great. And while we're at it, I would love to hear from growers about how they're planning to manage their plants this year. Plant size, vine patterns, lengths of secondaries, and amount of plant before fruit and after (if any?) are all relevant. I'm still new to this hobby, but I'm already learning that more isn't necessarily better, and having your plant set up to optimally "push" your fruit is fundamental to success. I hope to hear from many of you growers, because I know that our thinking on this subject is always evolving, and there's a wealth of experience here on this site. Thank you.

1/4/2018 10:08:41 PM

Grittyville, WA

I dont have any specifics but great questions... I would like to add that you can break the problem into two parts.

1/5/2018 8:54:54 AM

Grittyville, WA

Part one is how do you get an 800+ sq ft plant. Part two is how do you get 3.3 lbs per square ft. Neither of those on its own is very difficult but few growers have done both together.

1/5/2018 8:59:55 AM

Grittyville, WA

By few I mean only one! Mr. Willy! 3.3 lb. per square ft. is easy... And with a temporary greenhouse and a good early start 750 or 800 sq ft is easy, right? So I suspect a lot of growers are doing something very wrong and they dont realize what it is yet.

1/5/2018 9:16:29 AM

Grittyville, WA

free tip--Im pretty sure Willemijn's was off a six sepal flower. I dont think lobes matters. Sepals is what corresponds to pumpkin ribs and for the top growers extra ribs = extra weight . . . Although this probably increases splits on either end.

1/5/2018 9:52:03 AM

Plainville, Connecticut 06062

In Joel’s article he stated that he set his first good pollination on his plant on the main vine and that it was at the ten foot mark and growing so he kept that pollination instead of being selective with other pollinations farther out on the main. The ten foot mark is not an ideal distance with a lot of growers to set a pumpkin for the long haul, but there may be something positive to be said about the ten foot mark? Joel Holland just proved it so didn’t the Harps who grew there 1725 at the 9 1/2 foot mark. My heaviest pumpkin to date was grown at the 10 foot mark with 8 secondaries to each side prior to the pumpkin with a 15 foot main past the pumpkin and another 4-6 secondaries. This particular fruit missed 2,000 by 7 1/2 pounds. I also grew another good one at the 10 1/2 foot mark in both cases both plants stayed healthy until the end with 15-22 ft secondaries some swooped forward. The 10 foot pumpkin will suck juice first and normally will be bigger then other pollinations down the main and it will have usually a 3-7 day jump on your sweet spot pollinations farther down the main which could make a substanchial difference in the final weight of that short distance pollination over one pollinated a little later and farther down the main. There are many variables to think about in growing these giants but one thing is for sure and that’s that you can grow record pumpkins at the ten foot mark just ask Joel Holland!

1/5/2018 2:47:16 PM

Midway, UT

I think some of it depends on how wide you have your plant if it makes sense to keep a fruit at 10 feet and it also depends on how aggressive a grower a plant wants to be. Some plants just seem to want to grow vines, even when the fruit is taking off.

1/5/2018 5:18:41 PM

Grittyville, WA

My guess is the growers who have had issues with foaming stump should think about closer pollinations... if the foaming is not related to disease maybe its because the sugars at the back of the plant are so high right next to the water from the roots it causes osmotic explosion of the stem. Put the pumpkin closer and the sugars and water will have somewhere to go...

1/5/2018 5:25:17 PM

Central Illinois

Is it the ratio of plant size before and after the plant, if you have more after the pumpkin its feeds from that area?

1/6/2018 11:00:42 AM

Welterweights, Wa

It would be interesting to know exactly how the plumbing works I can't really say yes with certainty. There is a trend towards longer secondaries just prior to the pumpkin often this is somewhat at the expense of the main.

It would be interesting to know if the plant prior to the pumpkin, the secondary at the pumpkin, and the main... If they may all contribute differently (or perhaps detract!) in any way.

1/7/2018 12:58:42 AM

Welterweights, Wa

Oops someone has been using my tablet...

-- Glenomkins

1/7/2018 12:59:53 AM

Central Illinois

Ive thought it may work to remove the main before the pumpkin in the late season if you have a good fresh plant after the pumpkin.Possible that the plant after pumpkin doesnt back feed if the plant before it is still feeding

1/7/2018 10:05:40 AM

Hickory Island, MI

Thanks, those are some great ideas for sure. As far as plant efficiency goes, we would get the greatest pounds per square foot with tiny plants. I believe some of the 150 square foot participants got over 6 pounds per square foot last year. But most growers with enough room just want to grow the largest possible pumpkin, period. It would seem to follow that the biggest plant would give the biggest pumpkin, but that doesn't seem to be true. Of course the bigger we can get our plants before our desired pollination date, the better. But it seems that if most of our secondaries aren't terminated by about 20 DAP, a "competing sinks" situation develops, and fruit growth suffers. Also it appears that secondaries longer than about 20 feet aren't contributing much more, but possibly will closer to the fruit? It also seems that fruit set closer to the stump are benefiting from being nearer to the stump. Any grower that has had to set fruit beyond 20 feet on the main hasn't had great results, as far as I know. However, there is also substantial evidence that secondaries behind the fruit contribute more than those beyond. So how do you get plenty of plant behind your pumpkin, while still keeping it relatively close to the stump? Just my simple-minded thinking, I would love for more veteran growers to weigh in with their thoughts.

1/7/2018 1:23:23 PM

Sharon, MA

Sure seems like Joel wanted to pollinate further out that 10 ft, but ran out of time. His goal of a June 24th pollination was gone by the wayside unless he set a fruit on the 2145 by than. When the opportunity arose on the Main at 10 ft he took it. Gutsy move. I know of course Christy's WR1725 wes done at this distance too. Its high risk, and you are heavily dependent on a healthy stump at that distance. Throwing in an S curve for future stress relief on such a short distance can be hard to do. Then was it really a 900 Sq ft plant. The 10 ft of "space behind" the plant should be considered. If you figure 50% of the Stump roots are feeding in this free space then just maybe Joel was using the equivalent of 1000+ sq ft.
Also Joel was just pounding the plant with macro and micro nutients on a "more frequent turbocharged foliar regimen". A few are ferts with PKN numbers like...0-52-34, 1-1-17, 12-1-1 and soluable Calcium, and much more. I'm so grateful Joel took the time to share so much in his article. Any way, different things include... stuff like...If I am behind on vine length during that golden pollination window, I'll pollinate on a short vine to hit my predetermined pollination date. June 23rd would be awesome. Lat in the coming seasons marathon I'll probably pound the heck out of the plant with proper nutrients based on tissue test feed back and never miss a watering cycle in the dog days of Summer (August). And that 10ft area of open space. That's a huge feeding zone for the massive tuber roots coming out of the Stump. Might include that space in my plants vine pattern. Need to keep that area overly watered though because its not sheltered by a canopy of leaves and if it dries out the fruits weight gains will drop off rapidly. As you can see I'm pretty worked up. I still have the energy and enthusiasm of a younger grower. Taking full advantage of the off season, by reading these BP threads..

1/7/2018 4:19:59 PM

Grittyville, WA

baitman... I had one that ended up like that... removed most of the main before the pumpkin. The plant did not "back feed" this pumpkin well.


I liked what Joel said about switching off the heavy nitrogen right at pollination... within a day or two anyhow. Seems to make sense. Looks like he is feeding a lot, and the best way to be able to feed very high levels of the right things... is to not feed any of the wrong things.

hicktown I think that you summed it up well. Maybe the answer is that there is still room for creativity in the vine layouts.

1/8/2018 2:28:57 AM

Grittyville, WA

The more the plant is grown in a spider pattern the better it would be to have a close pollination. The strong secondaries coming out from the base of the plant can contribute more if the set is closer. .. Some plants like to grow this way, others dont. The optimal pattern might be different for different plants!

1/12/2018 1:18:53 AM

Grittyville, WA

When tertiaries are grown off the back secondaries this is halfway similar to a spider layout. . . Holland and the Wallaces have experimented with this modification to the christmas tree. Not sure if this was the case for the 2145 but I think it must have been its hard to believe that kind of success is unbelievable but this would make it easier to believe...

1/12/2018 1:31:12 AM

Grittyville, WA

bad editing sorry.

1/12/2018 1:34:01 AM

Hickory Island, MI

Glenomkins, do you think tertiaries contribute much to the growth of your pumpkin? If they do, you could let one grow out of the first node off the main on the last few secondaries before your fruit. This would give you "forked" secondaries where they have the least amount of vine to feed your pumpkin. However, I've had growers tell me that they felt tertiaries didn't contribute much due to their weak attachment to the secondary vine.

1/12/2018 9:12:36 AM

Grittyville, WA

I am not sure. I dont think tertiaries are bad though i think the extra leaf density some of the 150 sq ft growers use is part of why they get better lbs per sq ft. But the problem with dense leaves is the plant will start growing them taller and taller until they all fall over.

Anyhow you could do a half christmas tree on each of the last two secondaries if you lost the main or wanted to dead end the main at the pumpkin.

1/12/2018 9:34:52 AM

Grittyville, WA

Or wrap the last two secondaries forward then run tertiaries off one side of all four secondaries prior to the pumpkin into the space created between the final two secondaries, with the one going forward on either side there would be a large area that could be filled with tertiaries

1/12/2018 9:48:39 AM

Grittyville, WA

The last five secondaries are plumbed in rather directly to the pumpkin since the vine has five sides. I think ideally the five secondaries after the pumpkin would be run forward also

1/12/2018 9:56:24 AM

Grittyville, WA

Just ideas though. Havent tried this. I can say... I've seen one on a secondary grow slightly better than the one on the main, both pollinated on the same day. I cut the one on the secondary at 260 lbs. And then the one on the main picked up some growth. But really the one on the secondary had been growing faster... I think it was in the better spot, strangely. The plant thought so.

1/12/2018 10:13:21 AM

Grittyville, WA

I successfully ran a vine back up the center of the plant and it did help fill in especially late in the year when the oldest leaves (near the base of the plant) were fading. Lots of ideas...! I wish Gantners patch had made it with no damage he had a plant with a dead ended main at the pumpkin... Was hoping to see how it compared to the others at the end of the season.

1/12/2018 10:54:48 AM

Hickory Island, MI

Definitely a lot of options to consider. I think what you said about training the plant to grow like it wants has a lot of merit. Some send out strong secondaries early, others not so much.

1/12/2018 12:19:27 PM

Grittyville, WA

I had one more thought which is maybe the vine is still young enough to make and grow more or bigger connections to the pumpkin from the rest of the plant if the pollination is early in the plants life rather than later... Nothing guarantees success but i think its safe to assume whatever Joel did and did not do is worth studying. He did something right clearly lol

1/13/2018 12:57:37 AM