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Grittyville, WA

Was gonna post in the new growers forum but figured I'd open post here open to all ideas I'm sure there's lots ideas in your heads???

My idea is this: how important are the roots on the main vine vs the roots on the side vines. Does anyone have a positive or negative experience with a plant that was rooted only on the main vine?

The reason I ask is because on two of my plants I severed the main & stump. (One had rot in the stump, the other was done to keep two pumpkins going, to prevent either from aborting... which worked!) I noticed with both that although the plant survived the leaves nearest the cut died -- I believe of nutritional deficiency -- not water deficiency. It looked to me like the plumbing for the nutrients wouldn't work in reverse. The leaves didn't wilt they just began to looked malnourished and eventually died prematurely. If thats the case that the plumbing for nutrients doesn't work in reverse direction, then why bury the side vines... of course, they can collect water for the plant and can certianly can send nutrients forward or sugar back through the plant. But do we know that those side vines can send nutrients back into the plant? What if we don't realize that all the nutrients for the pumpkin are coming one direction only... from the stump and the roots on the main / prior to the pumpkin, not from the laterals. Makes you think twice about where you might want to spread your expensive fertilizers? Anyhow... thats my idea for 2018.

11/6/2017 7:46:29 AM

Rhode Island

i always believed pumpkins draw nutrients from everywhere on the plant.
sides pass nutrients back to the main,the main passes them down to the sink (the pumpkin)---why we side dress when burying side vines.

any nutrients the fruit can not take in,are passed down to the growth after the pumpkin.

for this reason i personally believe any leafs/vines that are exposed to even partial disease,foaming of the base,split open main,chemical burning,sun burning,etc, totally effects the fruits growth and, will always cause your pumpkin to loose pounds off its potential.

just my feeling

pap

11/6/2017 4:37:43 PM

Deer Park WA

I agree with pap, nutrtients / water flow freely throughout the plant to the sinks, fruit first and plant growth after the prime demand (pumpmin / reproduction needs) are met.

11/6/2017 9:03:58 PM

Dillonvale, Ohio

I also agree with pap. They have to travel both directions, I'm not sure it's possible to get 2000#'s w/ no secondaries. I also believe the kin sucks the nutrients from the plant, not grabbing them as they pass by.

11/6/2017 9:51:30 PM

Rhode Island

guys another great point is growers limited for space can not get the full benifit that a healthy 1,000 sq ft plant can.
even with problems a larger plant can with stand issues much better than a 3-500 sq ft plant could.

11/7/2017 9:38:45 AM

Deer Park, WI

The commentors in this post are spot on. It is scientific fact that all sources (leaves) are plumbed to all sinks (roots, shoots, and fruits) within the plant unless physically severed by some mechanical or environmental process.

Returning to the original theme of the post, I am planning to not grow in an area where the potential for herbicide carryover exists. As broadleaf plants, pumpkins do not much tolerate residual broadleaf herbicides used in agricultural production. Beware of this before moving into a farm field that previously used these chemical controls.

11/7/2017 10:06:50 AM

Grittyville, WA

My observation suggests to me that transport of some important nutrients is one-way, through the xylem. It’s a fact that there is two-way flow in the plant, yes, but there IS a difference between what flows one way vs the other way. Phloem carries sugars and maybe nutrients too but in my plants the phloem was not by itself supplying the necessary nutrients. I really think understanding the fruit as being a sink for both sugars from the phloem and nutrients from the xylem, but realizing the xylem is in fact flowing one-way up the vines, could help someone replicate a Williamijns-type result. The rooting along his main was excellent, and I hope someone will entertain my hypothesis that the roots along the main, and the stump, are the ones that matter, and that perhaps the other roots don’t matter at all. I’m not saying I’m right with certainty but... can anyone anyone take leap of faith and say it’s possible I’m right...?

“Phloem is the other type of transport tissue in vascular plants. Its main function is to carry soluble organic material, i.e. food for the plant, which is produced in the leaves by photosynthesis to the other parts of the plant. This process is called translocation. To do this effectively it flows both up and down the stem, unlike the xylem, which only flows up.“

11/7/2017 11:36:38 AM

Menomonie, WI (mail@gr8pumpkin.net)

Don't even get Joe started on Xylem and Phloem :)

11/7/2017 1:12:54 PM

Deer Park, WI

Too late Shannon.

I understand the question you are asking, to clarify, I interpret it as "Does xylem from adventitious roots on secondary vines feed back into the main and/or fruit?"

This is a great question to ask and I was unable to find a definitive answer in a quick 10 minute google search of the academic literature. Perhaps others can chime in here.

No one will argue that the crown root system and adventitious roots along the main vine are primary sources of water and immobile nutrients like calcium.

Regarding the significance of adventitious roots on secondary vines- I feel it is of utmost importance to nurture this system with adequate fertility and attention. While it is possible that water/nutrient flow from the xylem of these roots may not directly link to the fruit, these xylem undoubtedly feed the leaves above, which, as you already noted, manufacture the sugars that are then transported thru the phloem backwards along the vines to the main, and ultimately into the fruit. Here's a point of contention- while we dont have confirmation that xylem flows back, we know with certainty that phloem does.

Further, mnimizing or prohibiting the development of adventitious root system on secondary vines means that the entire leaf canopy depends on the crown roots and any adventitious roots along the main vine for their water/nutrient needs. Undoubtedly these demands would take away from fruit development potential.

In summary, I agree that crown roots and adv. roots on the main deserve extra special attention and care. Where our ideals diverge is on the significance of adv. roots on lateral vines. Sugars and a mileau of other important plant proteins, signaling molecules, nutrients, etc made in the leaves absolutely can make their way toward the pumpkin, regardless of their place on the plant.

11/7/2017 7:17:22 PM

Central Illinois

I think there is a radioactive material that can be applied to roots and can then be tracked as it flows through the plant, maybe this should be tried with pumpkins

11/8/2017 8:33:08 AM

50 Acres

And the pumpkins glow in the dark. :>)

11/8/2017 12:52:31 PM

Grittyville, WA

:) I agree it’s possible that the adventitious roots on the secondaries are important.

Any other ideas? Even ideas that are more superstitious than scientific? How about this one which way do you get best results with plants growing south/southwest? I seem to!

11/8/2017 7:51:53 PM

Grittyville, WA

thanks joe + pap w. u guys really care :)

11/8/2017 8:19:08 PM

50 Acres

Would it be advantageous to apply nutrients for pumpkin growth directly in front of the (sink) pumpkin and nutrients for vine and leaf growth along the main and side vines. Also would DMSO be advantageous or hinder absorption of nutrients.

11/8/2017 8:41:37 PM

Walhalla, ND.

I don't think that is to far fetched baitman. Yo can take a white daisy and put in in a glass of water with any color dye in it and it will take up that color into the pedals.

11/8/2017 9:59:13 PM

Rhode Island

So Pap that is my problem. lol

11/8/2017 10:04:41 PM

Deer Park WA

Plants in the green houses especially before laying down seen to prefer north to south orientation. The south to north plants always try to turn to the south messing with the laying down process. Once on the ground and running no differance in orientation The plant and pumpkin are controllably with no ill effect on growth.

11/8/2017 10:14:25 PM

Pittsburgh, PA

My garden is on a slope. Is it best to run main down or up the slope or perpendicular to the slope? Wettest part of garden is at bottom of slope so for that reason alone I wouldn’t run the main up the slope without first correcting my drainage issue. Ran mains perpendicular this past season and down the slope in 2016. How does Mr Gansert lay out his plants? He’s on a slope I believe.

11/8/2017 10:53:54 PM

Anamosa, IA BPIowegian@aol.com

I have always fertilized the whole patch the same. But I got thinking that the main stump roots and those closest to it are in the ground,sucking up nutrients longer than the roots out at the end. I found some Osmocote slow release fertilizer on clearance. It is supposed to release nutrients for 6 months, and it is full of a lot of micro nutrients too. I plan to use some of this closer to the stump, main, and back secondaries to try to give those roots a little boost of nutrients as they are using them out of the soil. I'm hoping to keep the stump healthy and feeding all season, not running out of steam late in the season. I will still fertilize the whole patch according to the soil test.

11/9/2017 12:14:01 AM

Central Illinois

They have done the test I mentioned to at least trees, it's in a video about Mykorizzie, can't remember the name

11/9/2017 8:45:30 AM

Bethlehem CT

This is one of the most interesting threads I have seen in quite a while.

11/9/2017 9:04:01 AM

Central Illinois

This is a shortened version of the video I mentioned, it doesn't talk about tracking radiation but I think you could replace the trees she speaking about with each root under a leaf, it could be the same thing. Possibly the plant can shuffle nutrients underground to deficient areas

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJWE3y2xdhQ

11/9/2017 9:14:07 AM

Deer Park, WI

Radio labeled tracing is a practice commonly used in medicine. Inject you with a little radioactive tracer, slide you in the MRI claustrophobia tube, and figger out which body parts glow.

Certainly can be done with plants, the trouble is with detection. Not everyone has access to an MRI or Geiger counter.

Another challenge with this is xylem could take up a tracer/dye, translocate to leaf where its repackaged and sent back out to phloem. So even if we could detect a tracer, we'd still not know which "highway" it took to get to its destination.

The quickest way to get an answer is to ask a plant biologist who's active in research or education. Many of you likely have kids in college and/or highschool. Give them an assignment. Have them ask their plant physiology professors the following: "Does xylem formed in adventitious roots on lateral vines in cucurbits back-feed water/nutrients to the apical meristem?"

You are likely paying for some tuition/room/board, may as well have them give you something in return. :)

11/9/2017 12:09:37 PM

Willamette Valley, Oregon

An interesting read: Phloem Sap in Plants: Composition and Movement

http://www.biologydiscussion.com/plants/translocation/phloem-sap-in-plants-composition-and-movement-plants/25696

11/13/2017 4:28:06 PM

Deer Park, WI

That was a great read, thanks for posting. The following stood out to me: "Photosynthesis, on the other hand, is strongly inhibited under conditions of reduced sink demand."

This, in a nutshell, is the primary reason why I have forever advocated for encouraging main vine tip growth for the entirety of the season.

Some have mistakenly believed that pruning the main vine tip somehow funnels/redirects plant energy into the pumpkin. I disagree with this logic. The purpose of the main vine tip, post pollination, is to continue producing signal molecules, like auxin, that tell the rest of the plant to keep the machinery running full steam. The main vine tip serves as the plants "fountain of youth". Preserve it at all costs. For those interested in more, I explored this topic in depth in my GPC big show presentation in Niagara last winter. I've now posted the slides on the SCGA website if ur interested.

11/13/2017 7:56:13 PM