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Deer Park, WI

In my recent post regarding top weight projections, Wayne posed two legit questions on the topic of seemingly outlier % heavy pumpkins/seeds: why dont they bring top dollar at auction and why did the Van Sand Bagus patch produce so many consistently over the chart pumpkins this season?

http://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryView.asp?season=2017&grower=33652&action=L

In regards to auction prices, it is my belief that seeds from heavy-to-chart pumpkins need to themselves consistently produce heavy-to-chart fruit for at least two seasons and also need to produce a top 10-15 size GPC fruit before it garners any attention. The 1756 Howell, 1625 Gantner, and 898 Knauss each fit the above criteria and therefore experienced premium pricing at auction. Results matter, apparently, versus potential results. Pumpkin seed valuations are no different than teeny bopper trends. The cool kids (heavy hitters) need to be the first on the bandwagon, once they popularize a trend (seed), the rest pile on and valuations rise.

In regards to why the VSB patch produced so many fruit with relatively high % heavy-to-chart weights, we are once again stuck in the realm of speculation due to the absence of concrete evidence.

% heavy-to-chart characteristic is both a genetic and environmental feature, as are all biological manifestations. We know genetics play a role because two pumpkins from the same patch grown back to back can have vastly different % to chart outcomes, despite nearly identical environmental conditions.

11/4/2017 10:02:55 AM

Deer Park, WI

We assume environment plays a role because multiple fruit from different seeds in the same patch can all display a similar trend of % heavy-to-chart (like the VSB example above).

Naturally, these observations spawn more questions than answers. The most relevant question to ask is "which of these known factors can I control and therefore benefit from in my own patch?"

The genetic side of the equation is somewhat easier to manage. We have the ability to research trends in our genetics (assuming lineages are correct) and select for seeds that appear to produce "heavier" fruit. If genetics are 50% of the heavy-to-chart equation (this is purely speculation), then you've got half the battle covered by selecting seeds that display this characteristic.

The environmental side remains an enigma. Thinkers on this topic will often assume something in the soil controls the process. This may or may not be true. We dont know cuz no one has come forward with strong evidence that a single nutrient or combo of nutrients, soil type, pH, organic matter, CEC, base saturation, biological factor, etc etc etc is responsible for enhancing fruit density and/or wall thickness. It is also possible that environmental factors beyond soil biology/chemistry contribute: weather patterns, air quality, geography, day length, color of tractor you drive and brand of beer you drink could all play a role in the final outcome of fruit.

11/4/2017 10:03:51 AM

Deer Park, WI

It is reasonable to assume that there is some combo of environmental factors that led to the VSB patch having the pattern of % heavy fruit that it did. There's also a small chance it was pure coincidence. The problem is we have no way to determine what those factors are. Its a hard truth we have to swallow until structured research focusing on identifying these factors can be performed.

Coming back to the question of what can you control, there's nothing, environmentally speaking, we can do in the patch to directly impact % heavy in our fruit. That sucks. But such is biology.

If we knew the recipe how to nurture Michael Jordan basketball players or Albert Einstein geniuses, the entire world would be populated with brilliant athletes. In lieu of that, the best we can do is set the stage optimal developmental conditions- whether pumpkins or children, we strive to keep them disease free, well watered, well fed, well cared for (time spent), full of sunshine, and protected from danger. Control what you can and hope for the best. :)

11/4/2017 10:03:56 AM

Prestonsburg,ky

I think James lays in the patch rubbing on the pumpkins while slowly injecting lead into them!!! Lmao. Just my opinion

11/4/2017 10:38:26 AM

Grittyville, WA

Gosh you're brave to bring this topic up... Well I'm a novice grower basically... not using any special calcium or silica. I think I've got it partly figured out though.

Last year I had a healthy plant off the 1221.5 Emmons. The 1221.5 has the 1462.5 Starr in it... and this seed has a good record of having % heavy progeny. And the pumpkin on this one... I broke a kitchen knife in it because even though it was only 250-300 lb it was 8-10" thick everywhere. The cavity was very small. There were two set on that plant and both were very thick-walled. This year the progeny from this plant seemed also to want to grow thick-walled pumpkins. So it seems to me its genetics and the amount of time its left on the vine (after 40-45 days the pumpkins seem to just get thicker rather than bigger... I reached this conclusion after careful daily monitoring of our largest pumpkin) I am still open to the idea that it could be nutritional or environmental too.

11/4/2017 11:57:09 AM

Grittyville, WA

Looks to me like J S V B picked a good lineup for going %hvy.

Some guys have heavy lineups... but you throw a light seed in and they cant make it go heavy. Look at 1639.5 Sherwood 2017... Thats just genetics (or maybe any other grower and it would have been -12 % idk) and indeed I think rick j. himself said it best:

http://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=284778

Its hard to know how if this will work but its really smart idea...

11/4/2017 12:39:59 PM

Netherlands

There is an issue with the measuring itself. Different weigh-offs might tape the pumpkin differently. I have noticed this over the years. Some weigh-offs have a higher percentage of light or heavy pumpkins compared to other weigh-offs in the same region and regardless of where the pumpkins were grown.

11/4/2017 1:03:17 PM

nowthen

Well said joze, the same could be said for large otts or even color.

11/4/2017 1:17:31 PM

Corbin, KY

Turbo Juice!

11/4/2017 7:48:21 PM

Somerset,Ky

Super Duper Turbo Juice! Also have to have a two hump camel named Cecil as he can carry more sand!!?

11/5/2017 8:50:32 AM

Central Illinois

Could it be the air temperature at different periods of growth making the meat denser

11/5/2017 9:50:59 AM

Muddy Waters

Definitely an issue with the way pumpkins are getting measured it is not consistent.I have witnessed all kinds of wacky doodle measuring

11/5/2017 7:32:14 PM

Muddy Waters

Even feeding a pumpkin potassium silicate calcium extremely high boron supplements.pumpkin still went 17lbs under the new chart .but how do I know without these nutrients the pumpkin wouldn't of been 100 pounds light? No way to really know what would of been without the nutes

11/5/2017 7:35:59 PM

Mill Bay, British Columbia

I hope Spambie speaks up here, most notably his pumpkin was pollinated late on August 14th and harvested only 53 days later for Weighoff.

Not only was his pumpkin a new Provincial Record at 1543 lbs, a whopping 16% heavy in only 53 days after pollination.

Go figure.

11/5/2017 7:51:44 PM

Torrance, Ca.

Take a good look at that Russ Pingrey and what he did this year !! All his stuff went way over chart!

Also, Steve Daletas,,, look at his Patch,,, it’s been in different locations too. His Pumpkins more times then not go way over chart.

Sherwood the last couple years has gone really heavy with most of his fruit. Genetics is part of it but these guys have something figured out.

11/5/2017 8:12:55 PM

nowthen

Agreed SoCal, as I suggested earlier the same goes for color. Example....bubba, young, gansert or any other known for their orange have pretty consistent color, granted they are using orange genetics the color is pretty consistent. If I planted any of the same seeds my pumpkin would still be cream, green, blue and salmon. I believe nutrition plays a big part in all of this.

11/5/2017 8:45:59 PM

Owensboro, Ky.

Bubba, and all who are talking about measurement issues? Sorta thinkin, that the Slunger Brothers had AG's at....3,4, maybe 5 different weighoff sites, and all went teens over the chart...so all 3,4,maybe 5 different sites all measured wrong? Get all your eggs into one basket! Peace, Wayne
Congrats to all bringing in the Slunger's (Heavy to Chart)!!!

11/7/2017 2:04:35 AM

Owensboro, Ky.

Joe, this aint no new thing, the VSB Brothers have been bringing AG's to weigh-off's for several years that are in the teens OTC!!! This is why I asked this question to begin with! 2017 is not the first year the VSB's have done this!!! When the brother's do it year after year...I think that disqualifies their kins as an outlier? JMHO Peace, Wayne
PS...I also do not think that Bubba's comments about incorrect measurements should enter into this discussion!

11/9/2017 1:24:33 AM

Owensboro, Ky.

Sorry for fat fingers...should have read...I DO think that Bubba's comment's about incorrect measurements should enter into this discussion! I think it is a slam on all who work hard to do this correctly @ every weighoff!!! Would bet that all of them are very familiar w/measuring techniques!! If only Bubba knew what Super Duper Turbo Juice was? LOL! Maybe the discussion would end? & It's a shame that the VSB brother's don't have it on the market for sale? Eh, Mark? Peace, Wayne

11/11/2017 2:16:36 AM