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On top of Brush Mountain, Pa.

What would you need to know before you would feel comfortable endorsing a product for someone else to use in their garden to ultimately enhance the size, taste, health or whatever of what they were growing? You might want to first know exactly what the ingredients of the product were, how much of each was in the product and how were they made and where did they come from (China)? You might also want to know if the were any toxic chemicals, say arsenic, present. Then you might want to know exactly who made the product and where it was made. The price would also be helpful. And then how difficult is it to apply and how often? And how long is the product viable, lets call this "staleness time." And finally, does it really do what it says it does. This often times get to a "He said, she said" kind of thing that is nearly impossible to measure. Scientists might call these anecdotal reports. These are the least actually measurable things. If you put something in your patch and the patch looks better to you at the end of the season, how do you know it was not just the weather that year? Or something else other than the product. In view of all this, it becomes really difficult to be the person endorsing any product. Certainly the GPC is not equipped to do this and has never expressed an interest in doing so. Some growers you might listen to, established honest people who consistently grow well. Those selling a product would or should want you to know everything available about their product so that you could make an educated decision. Spray and Grow shows with and without vegetable and flower pictures, very impressive but who knows for sure the smaller plants were not starved? Research, research, research. But in the end, "Buyer beware."

4/29/2017 9:15:48 AM

Hard to know what works when the whole kitchen sink is being thrown at the plants.
Good reliable 3rd party testing would be nice.

4/29/2017 10:59:21 AM

Lebanon, Oregon

With most growers including myself, it's just expensive blind faith.

4/29/2017 12:35:09 PM

Alaska

Look for Peer Review literature. I was talking with a Pro Mix rep just the other day about all of this new stuff they are adding to their products. She assured me it was great stuff and they had a department of scientists working for them who could back up their claims. So I went to their web site to get acquainted with some of the new stuff they are selling. The very first product I came across told me all I needed to know for now at least. and I quote"MYCOACTIVE is a Premier Tech proprietary technology" meaning their findings are not given to other research scientists (Peers)outside of Premier Corp. Who then try and duplicate/replicate what Pro Mix did and in the end come to the same conclusion. Thereby confirming the results. So in my opinion the so called science department is nothing more than a part of the marketing and sales department. I'm not saying there isn't some validity to certain products but to what degree are they helpful and at what cost to the average grower of average means????

4/29/2017 1:25:49 PM

Springfield, Missouri

This is from Advanced Nutrients page,
"Why Can Only Grand Master Growers Use Rhino Skin? Rhino Skin is the most effective, concentrated silica product on the market. Grand Master growers are dedicated to spending the time necessary to maximize crop size and yields. They have the time and expertise to properly handle the power of Rhino Skin. As you use the Bigger Yields System and progress up the ladder of success while educating yourself with our gardening information materials, you will one day be a Grand Master so you too can get the benefits of Rhino Skin."

They make it seem like Rhino Skin is the most concentrated product on the market and that's not true. They don't cite study showing they are better than competition even though that's what they claim. And the exclusiveness of Rhino Skin is killing me Grand Master Growers only club....lol.

4/29/2017 2:18:56 PM

Springfield, Missouri

    
Four liters of RhinoSkin costs almost $90. Potassium silicate has a molar mass of 154, silicon has a molar mass of 28, therefore potassium silicate is 18.2% silicon by weight. RhinoSkin is 1% silicon by weight. If you wanted to produce your own RhinoSkin you would add 1 gram potassium silicate per 17 milliliters of water.

So by weight RhinoSkin is 5.5% potassium silicate. Four liters weighs roughly 9 pounds. So four liters of RhinoSkin has roughly half a pound of potassium silicate salt in it for $90. I can get a 50 pound bag of AgSil 16H for $209 with shipping included.

RhinoSkin will cost you roughly $180 per pound of potassium silicate
AgSil 16H will cost you roughly $4.18 per pound of potassium silicate

4/29/2017 2:20:17 PM

Oak Grove, Mn

this subject is in two threads now...
took a picture at the local grow store todayhttp://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=271804

have made further comments on Manufacturer of Marks Products thread

4/29/2017 5:04:42 PM

nOVA sCOTIA

And what information did you obtain from RTI Spudley ??

4/29/2017 7:36:29 PM

Springfield, Missouri

Sorry thought rhino skin was 1% silicate... Looks like it is actually 0.1% . So you would actually be paying $1,800 per pound potassium silicate. Lol

4/29/2017 8:29:59 PM

Colorado

Gonna call my line of silica "pachydermis"-I'm thinking $18,000 per pound of active ingredient-but will have great graffics:)

4/29/2017 11:49:02 PM

Torrance, Ca.

I'm with Joe on this one.

We're investment partners though.

4/29/2017 11:52:30 PM

Thanks for the perspective MOpumpkins et al.

I guess it is safe to say that is not a ringing endorsement!
I guess the most cost effective way to buy is from a farm center in most cases. If buying in quantity is too expensive , try to find people to split it with you.

4/30/2017 6:09:18 AM

Mn

Take a look at this one. I've been using it for 2 years.
http://npk-industries.com/silica.html does not effect PH.

4/30/2017 9:06:02 AM

Oak Grove, Mn

The label on the npk silica says 45% silicon dioxide. It is also interesting that it says "Does not benefit dicot plants". I am interested where you are buying the NPK products from. I did a search of my area code. The retail locations that came up I have been to many times..but have never seen any NPK Raw products there.

4/30/2017 9:25:18 AM

Central Illinois

Aren't pot plants dicot, I think that's their biggest market.

4/30/2017 10:30:48 AM

On top of Brush Mountain, Pa.

It seems that on BigPumpkins it is impossible for those posting to stay on topic. I posted this in the hope that growers would think about holding Mark and his products as well as any other product like his "feet to the fire." Iceman did a lot of research looking into Mark and his products. He actually had them analyzed in several laboratories. He found them wanting and said so, backed by research. Mark never really came up with anything to defend himself or his products. People began to attack Iceman for revealing his conclusions. He was attacked on the basis of nothing more than emotions. I know Iceman via the Internet and I can tell you he is an honest forthright person and gives a lot of thought to what he says and does. When he brought up the issues he brought up, it was on the basis of a lot of time spent, thought given, money spent and research done. He gave his conclusions. He tried to right a wrong. Mark responded with nothing of any value. Mark needs to respond with more than he has. Don't blame Iceman for telling it like he saw it. He has nothing to prove and this is definitely not a vendetta type thing. Mark needs to put up or shut up. Educate us as to the value of what you are selling and why we should buy it and use it in our gardens. Iceman says it is crap! And people need to get off Iceman's back for putting out his fact-based information. As I see it, the ball is in Mark's court. Iceman is not about BS. He saw what he saw and told about it, hoping to help the grower community, an honorable goal. We should not be attacking the messenger. Mark, tell us why Iceman is wrong or give it up.

I probably should have posted this sooner but I know from past experience that I will probably be attacked along with Iceman. But, I feel Iceman has been treated poorly on this topic and had to say so. If it happened to anyone of you I would have done the same. Let the chips fall where they may.

4/30/2017 10:46:17 AM

You make some very valid points. I think most of us took the question differently.
You certainly will not receive flack from me for what you said.
As I said before " reliable third party testing" because I would want to know what I was selling.

4/30/2017 11:15:38 AM

Mill Bay, British Columbia

Marc you are right in all respects. Eddy is a good man and would never have a personal agenda when it comes to dealing with issues in our growing community. People selling products trying to capitalize on others in a small market is a risky adventure and when someone smell a rat, it is usually a rat. I've said this before...anyone remember Okiegal and the crap she was doing for years? Where is she now?

4/30/2017 11:50:29 AM

Mill Bay, British Columbia

My reply was to Marv....sorry fat fingers and small keyboard.

4/30/2017 11:51:42 AM

NE Arkansas

"I know Iceman via the Internet and I can tell you he is an honest forthright person" That's a wild statement... I mean if you knew him personally that may be different.. Here's what I take from this... If you don't like how Mark's products are packaged, sold, the information available, then don't buy them... Buy whatever Eddy wants you to buy... That's the beauty of a free market... you have choices... If you are making a big deal out of a product that you don't have to buy then there has to be an alternate reason... who care...

4/30/2017 11:52:17 AM

NE Arkansas

@ Bob doesn't everything we grow fall into the dicot plants? You have mono(one) and dicot(two). Pumpkin, watermelon, Squash, Cantaloupe, tomato, gourds, the list goes on

4/30/2017 12:11:51 PM

Springfield, Missouri

Is Rhino Skin off topic? You were talking about shady products Rhino Skin and other liquid silicas are shady products. Cal-Carb is another shady product AND it is endorsed by the GPC... I've met Wiz and he's a great guy, and I respect the heck out of Eddy for everything he's done for this hobby. I agree with you Marv we need to research, research, research, and not just assume that all products produced by big companies are beneficial our plants. So why didn't GPC committee research Cal-Carb before endorsing it? If we are ready to scrutinize products let's look at em all... right?

4/30/2017 1:00:01 PM

Randlett, Oklahoma

Couldnt agree more with MOpumpkins last post. I would like to know what does "endorsed by gpc" mean. Did the company that makes calcarb pay the gpc money to put that emblem on there, or do the gpc endorse it because they think it is a good product. I would just like to know the relationship there and how it came to be with those products

4/30/2017 1:14:40 PM

Mn

bnot I order from here http://www.horticulturesource.com/index.php?manufacturers_id=225&sort=1d&page=3. I have ask a couple of hyro shops and they will get it. There markup is a killer.

4/30/2017 1:43:22 PM

NE Arkansas

@ bob you can get that stuff on eBay way cheaper than a hydro store...

4/30/2017 1:52:55 PM

On top of Brush Mountain, Pa.

Off topic again. Eddie's point was not so much about a product as it was about intentionally misleading people. My statement about Iceman stands. I have had interactions with him for years though I only actually met him once at a Pumpkin Convention in Canada. He was sober at that time though it was early in the evening. Also I have read his posts for years. Also, in all that time, I have never seen a negative comment made about him. I can't even say that for myself.

4/30/2017 3:05:29 PM

Oak Grove, Mn

sorry marv, if you wanted to make it a topic about just mark and eddie...i think you should have been a bit more direct in the first post. I was enjoying the way the thread was going...but I will leave it..maybe we can start a topic for products that are questionable somewhere else

4/30/2017 3:39:58 PM

On top of Brush Mountain, Pa.

It is not just about Mark and Eddy. It is about product validation. It is about wild claims that are untrue. Its about the value of certain products and how to determine that value. Its about proving your claim that rubbing cow manure on your head will grow hair before you put it on sale.

4/30/2017 4:25:30 PM

On top of Brush Mountain, Pa.

Don't leave. I am done.

4/30/2017 4:30:08 PM

Central NY

Dunno bout growing hair but that stuff works wonders on chapped lips...well, keeps you from licking them anyway...

4/30/2017 4:32:26 PM

Put a new post in science so it will not get lost. Too good of a subject to be lost in general discussion.
Sorry Marv , put it up before I read your last post And I understand what you mean by some people getting off subject.

4/30/2017 4:54:25 PM

Mn

Talk and finger pointing is cheap. Do as I'm doing. I'm growing with NPK RAW and Marks products. A couple of plants each. Let's see how they produce. Without this or a lot of lab testing know one has any backing.

4/30/2017 7:55:05 PM

NE Arkansas

Same here OrangeGhost... im growing 4 melon plants with marks product and 4 with a different product line... that way I can see what works well in certain situations...

5/1/2017 12:59:01 AM

Owensboro, Ky.

OG, I think (jmho) that you have missed something in all of this. Eddy took a bunch of Mark's products over the past couple of years & had them tested!! Eddy's testing labs (more than one) stated that Mark's claims about his products are not up to snuff!!! So, EddyZ's statements do have backing!! I have met both of these folks, and don't want to create more problems, but C'mon !!! The facts talk!! Peace, Wayne

5/1/2017 1:30:34 AM

Wixom MI.

Their has been a well known fued going on for 3-5 years between wizzy,eddy and mark. Marks goal is to take his product retail and it takes a minimum of two years to gets these products to market and that is if their are no problems along the way. Once they go retail the lables will have to list what is in it and the product will have to meet all requirements before they can sell retail. This prosses is almost done. So i see no reason for these attacks before the finnal step is finnished.till then Be patient and let the prosses finnish. Also mark doesn't need his manufacturers to be bothered by people who only wont to cause problems so their is no need to know his manufacture untill after it goes retail.again if you don't like it, then their are many other products out their to buy.

5/1/2017 9:42:10 AM

NE Arkansas

@ Wayne, the only thing I saw in the emails was about rootkeeper testing... but this is what I wonder.. who knows where it came from, was it altered, how was it stored, was it new? was it 2 years old? none of this was put in those emails... the more I read about the feud and just like Wizzy messaged me saying he had a issue with Mark over something he heard that Mark had said about a club years ago... that makes me think there is an under lying agenda...

5/1/2017 9:57:42 AM

Owensboro, Ky.

Chris, a tad confused? Products must meet all requirements before they can be sold? This process is almost done? (5/1/2017), and I bought some of these products a couple of months ago? If not legal to sell b/4 final step is finished, then how do I have them already?
J. what I want is for Mark to step up, and send legitimate results from independent testing labs, about the quality of his products!About your wondering...b/4 Mark got it, or after he sells it? I also wonder about an under lying agenda? Never knew that Wizzy was involved in this dispute at all? How bout Mark, Wiz, & Eddy all 3 send in samples of Mark's product to the same lab, and see what comes out? Peace, Wayne

5/2/2017 1:40:37 AM

Alaska

From what I can tell there isn't much in the way of "Regulations" Kinda like the Vitamin/Supplement industry. They claim these products may do this or may do that but one thing is clearly stated on the bottle. These products have not been tested by the FDA. Meaning you are taking them at you own risk. The only thing different here is one may kill you over time and the other just drains your wallet lol. I believe in both cases they call it snake oil.

5/2/2017 3:43:08 AM

On top of Brush Mountain, Pa.

Interestingly there are a lot of articles on line about "Snake Oil Products." If you have lots of free time, check out what this guy has to say. He is a 'snake oil" expert. http://sfp.ucdavis.edu/files/144822.pdf
As an example, he says there is no real proof that mycorrhizae are worth adding to our gardens and that those product available vary greatly in the amount of active and potentially active content with some having little to none. He debunks a lot of our accepted practices as never having really been scientifically evaluated. It appears that various fertilizers do have to validate their contents but can make wild claims about how great they are. I would not be able to sell cow manure to grow hair because of the variation in content from batch to batch. Eddie's research showed that the active content in Mark's products were lacking.

5/2/2017 9:05:44 AM

Alaska

When it comes to bagged water soluble ferts."NPK" there is a requirement that a guaranteed analysis be done. With all of this living stuff who knows. Was it ever put in there to begin with how much was added how much has survived. Does what your growing even need it. Are your soil conditions even right for it to survive. When ever you read it's a Proprietary product buyer beware. I always get a giggle when someone who's either selling or endorsing shows you a root ball of a potted plant and says see, do you see that. Nice white roots, okay lol. Of course their point is without my product you just won't get that. That's just not true! The real reason for those healthy white roots is soil structure water management and nutrients. Healthy happy plants. You can take away the snake oil and still grow excellent stuff but take away the other 3 and your doomed.

5/2/2017 1:15:55 PM

Western PA

Let's not kid ourselfs here.... When it comes to small time operations in just about every industry what you are buying is repackaged product. Which means there is a big manufacturer making a product and you either buy the existing product in bulk, repackage it under your brand and sell it. You could also have the manufacture change the ingredients a hair either way to say it is a proprietary mix or blend, buy in bulk and package it for retail. The reality we are buying a brand name in most cases and most products are either very similar or the same. When it comes to all the growers turned pumpkin moguls with their own product line this is most likely the case in most instances.

5/4/2017 11:07:36 AM

Western PA

I always found it interesting how certain individuals with a particular name or seniority in pumpkin growing can get away with selling seeds or pumpkin growing fertilizers without anybody even raising an eyebrow at them, but others are put to the fire as a witch hunt peruses. I mean come on, there are more people selling seeds and repackaged fertilizers then Bubba so if you are going to call out one of them, call them all out.
Disclaimer: I don't know Bubba at all and this is nothing new people have been selling seeds and fertilizer on here for a long time!

5/4/2017 11:17:12 AM

Lexington, Ky

@Pumpkin Picker, there's much more to the story than Bubba's fert and seed issues, two years worth. Drawing my own conclusions, it was a proper call out. He helped single himself out, it wasn't about favorites or seniority.

5/4/2017 1:00:47 PM

Deer Park WA

Lol at ya'all, buy what you like or think will give you an edge, Holland, WoW, Bubba, RTI, Wallmart, etc. whatever... bottom line to success is balancing your soil pH, micro / macro nutes and experience in moving the plant always foreward. We really dont appreciate slamming fellow growers as this is already a tough sport to compete in. If folks have some success and start selling their secret sauces as a cure all to your piss poor soil the buy them if you think it will help. 101 gardening starts with soil health and experience.

Love ya all and respect the effort it takes to get one to the scale!

Gerry,

5/5/2017 12:41:44 AM