From

Location

Message

Date Posted

Deer Park, WI

Back in 2010, the group here engaged in a lively series of threads and posts that uncovered some hypothetical, yet logical, explanations of the hows and whys of foamers. Refresh you memory here: http://www.bigpumpkins.com/MsgBoard/ViewThread.asp?b=3&p=376696

Im currently reading a book on soil fertility and came across a nugget in the text that sparked a thought. Here's the line that caught me: "...when it gets hot and humid, the sodium incorporated into the cell walls begins to cause expansion. When the expansion is too great the cell walls burst, killing the plant cell by cell."

Consider this from your own experiences...a large McD's fries with extra salt means you will chase it with a big gulp. Water follows salt. Its one of those immutable laws of the universe.

How much sodium is too much? That's a complex question, and to answer it you'll need your soil test. Have a look at your base saturation percentages. Sodium (Na) should be between 0.5% and 3%. Anything over 3% is excessive. Also compare sodium to potassium (K). Sodium base saturation (%) should never be greater than potassium base saturation.

So two conditions here to consider- Sodium base saturation less than 3% and always less than potassium's.

11/24/2015 10:50:20 AM

Deer Park, WI

If your soil test suggests either or both of these conditions, then it is possible you are more prone to sodium-induced cell expansion and the associated consequences.

I cant draw a straight line between sodium imbalance and foamers. Foamer fizziology is way more complex than one single soil alteration. But if this issue is present in your soils, then it may contribute to a larger confluence of factors that predispose your plants to foaming.

What to do? If sodium is excessive, two options exist. #1, Na flushes through the soil profile with water. Lots of precip will wash it out of the soil over time and thus alter the relative percentages in base saturation. Just make sure you are not using sea water or softened water.

#2, raise potassium. But only if your soil test shows that your soil can handle it. If the base saturation % of potassium + sodium is >10, you will have a whole slew of other issues to deal with. A modest bump in potassium, that results in its base saturation in the 3-5% range, is ideal.

Have a look at your soil tests and lemme know if you find any association between foamers and sodium.

11/24/2015 10:50:33 AM

Little-TON - Colorado

Extend your side vines out to 15 feet... less pressure, no foamers.... is my 2 cents worth.... especially in areas of high humidty and high powered genetics....

11/24/2015 1:09:53 PM

Austin MN

Joe do you think high OM could cause foamers too? Seems like iv seen people who push high OM blow there stumps alot.

11/24/2015 2:43:04 PM

Central NY

<---insert joke here ....

11/24/2015 3:00:31 PM

Deer Park, WI

^my stump never gets blown no matter how hard i push.

Wiz i agree that plant management strategies can help reduce risk. With unrestricted growth below ground, one needs to allow growth above ground to provide more transpirational pull to move water thru the system.

Tanner- "cause" is a dangerous word when speculating on factors that may influence a complex issue such as this. It is my belief that organic matter in and of itself has no direct impact on foamer incidence. However, soils with high organic matter tend to be more microbially active and obviously have higher CEC/fertility. High CEC, fertility, and microbial activity are the most powerful drivers of root growth. More roots=more water in the plumbing. More water in the plumbing, well you get the picture.

11/24/2015 3:39:41 PM

stoughton WI

joe you mentioned softened water in your post. there should be very little to no salt in softened water. unless your softener is not working properly. the salt in your brine tank is sucked into the softener to dislodge the dirt particles from your filter media. during the regeneration cycle the salt should be washed out of the softener, unless like I said your softener is not working properly. if growers are worried about it, you can have your water tested, very easily. we usually have 3 or 4 foamers most years, and I do believe that the heat and moisture do have a lot to do with it. in 2014 when we grew the 1756 the temps were lower than a normal year and we only had one foamer. i will be adding lots of perlite to the garden in hopes it will help with drainage and aeration.

11/24/2015 5:51:47 PM

Oak Grove, Mn

Good discussion topic Joze I hope some "good stuff knowledge " will sink into my patch next year. Both my plants had foaming issues. i kept the rotted stems intact until the end....even though i know many growers would have recommended not to

11/24/2015 5:55:32 PM

Oak Grove, Mn

based on really old tests samples, i would say my Na was very very low....growing on 3 years old tests results

11/24/2015 5:57:57 PM

Minnesota(dw447@fastmail.fm)

Is the foaming stump issue more prevalent with certain soil types? I've never had this issue. My soil is a sandy loam, I would say. I should add that I've never really dialed in my soil nutrients, or pushed the plants with high nutrient profiles.

11/24/2015 7:12:17 PM

Anamosa, IA BPIowegian@aol.com

I have never had a foaming stump. My sodium levels are very low: 36 ppm, 1% base saturation. My organic matter is under 3%. My soil texture is silt loam over sand. I let the side vines near the stump grow out 15' to the edge of the growing area, then train them parallel to the main. I do get some blowouts in the bottoms of some of the vines. I don't know what this means, just observations for others to consider.

11/24/2015 8:41:18 PM

Central Illinois

I have a lot of foamersprobable due to my skills .but my tests results are Na 40 ppm with 1% base saturation potassium is 8%

11/25/2015 8:07:38 AM

JACKSON, WISCONSIN. ; )

I have 18 % om only had one stump with an issue... I believe that issue was not due to the above items more of a broke / kinked main vine...
Good work Joe... I look forward to reading more on this subject this winter..

11/25/2015 8:55:29 AM

Paradise Mountain, New York

I have high organic matter and never had a stump foam nor any stump problems at all. When I water my plants, the stump gets watered as well.Been growing since 2002.Sandy loam soil. I do use a lot of corn meal in the Spring start up and a little extra were I set my plants......

11/25/2015 1:55:38 PM

Oak Grove, Mn

reply in response to big city This year, i think that the sharp cutting hail, definitely contributed to my foamers. It was the growers decision to let a few tertiaries grow to replace cut secondaries. Also many wounds by main stem. Hopefully next year, when i am growing with the same genetics, i will see less foaming.

11/25/2015 5:15:16 PM