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Deer Park, WI

Dear Growers-

Hypothetical: lets say I am selling you a dozen egg laying hens. When you arrive at the store, I hand you a covered box of chicks and happily take your money, then wish you well with your new collection of egg makers. Upon arriving home, you open the box to discover only 1 of the 12 are alive. Sounds crazy, doesnt it, that a producer of live organisms would sell you a non-living product?

As we continue to increase our use of biologicals (read: live organisms in a state of suspended animation), it becomes more important that attention is paid to the quality of the products we are purchasing.

Over the winter, I have reviewed a number of lab analyses performed on various mycorrhizal products. The results are quite illuminating. What can be concluded from these analyses is that there is a wide degree of variability in the quantity/quality of live organisms present in these products, ranging from zero viability to very robust counts of mycorrhizal inoculum.

I am not in a position to disclose these results, as its not my intent to point fingers at any one manufacturer. Additionally, these results reflect viability in the samples submitted, which may or may not be representative of an entire brand/manufacturer. My purpose is to call attention to the fact that mycorrhiza is not all the same. Just because you bought 12 egg layers doesnt mean you are getting 12 egg laying hens. The only way to be sure the product you are using contains viable organisms is to verify it through analysis. This is a serious, legitimate issue. We as customers should expect manufacturers to deliver on their claims.

The fact that that onus is on us to determine quality is frustrating. Products should live up to their claims. Until that is the case, however, it will be our responsibility to not only assess product quality, but also to address the situation in a way that perpetuates change.

4/22/2015 5:19:44 PM

Lexington, Ky

Good point(s). So, how does one know which product to buy? Should we be self analyzing or trust the manufactures to analyze their product for us? Do labs exist for the layman that we can send our product to for evaluation?

4/22/2015 5:47:43 PM

South Hero, VT

This has been a point of contention for many years for AG growers, with fingers pointed and accusations flying galore.

It goes without saying that anything you can buy in a big box store or farm supply store that contains mycorrhizae will not contain many viable spores.

Any shared sources of info to help us get the most bang for the buck would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks for adding fuel to the fire.

4/22/2015 6:24:54 PM

Eganville, Ontario

Post your results. That may get people listening.

4/22/2015 7:53:57 PM

Kings Park, NY

In addition to testing the product I found a site that discussed effects of Temp., Light, Age, etc. on the spores. They also listed the effects of different fungicides. If you want your mycorrhizae spore count checked, you can have it tested at http://www.biologicsystemsusa.com/services/testing-and-analysis
Unfortunately, it seems as though they can't tell if they are viable until you try it. It's only after you have the plant's root system tested for percent colonization, that you can see if the product was any good. I guess you grow a test plant over the winter, try some and send in a tissue sample before you needed it in the Spring.

4/22/2015 8:43:02 PM

Kings Park, NY

Thttp://www.lebanonturf.com/education/bilogicalplanttreatments/mycorrhizalfungihis was the site that tested the fungicides, etc.

4/22/2015 8:45:05 PM

Kings Park, NY

I'll try again
This was the site that tested the fungicides
http://www.lebanonturf.com/education/bilogicalplanttreatments/mycorrhizalfungi

4/22/2015 8:45:58 PM

Muddy Waters

Test them your self If you inoculate a seedling in a pot and one with just water you will see the difference in 10 days.If you see no difference its bad

4/22/2015 9:19:38 PM

Johnston, Iowa

MemphisBelle thx for the link to the Lebanon Turf online resources.

Sorry a little off topic, but Lebanon Turf has some very interesting products - I met their reps over the winter a several nursery/landscape/garden center trade shows.

http://www.lebanonturf.com/fertilizers/c/2/index.aspx#/?pagesize=25&pg=1&subcat=2&b=14&sort=1&attf=%7B4%7C10%7C7%7D&attv=%7B-2147483648%7C-2147483648%7C-2147483648%7D

4/22/2015 10:23:20 PM

Knopp, Germany

Haven't posted in a while but this seems to be something that has to do with being fair and honest, those are core character traits for me, both in professional life (work, business, etc) and personal (friends, hobbies etc).

So- how do we "address the situation in a way that perpetuates change."?

Also, if I buy dead hens from a supplier and let my friends go to the same supplier and do not tell them about the problem I am just as guilty as the supplier.

If I am missing something here please tell me publicly or privately giantsquash@gmail.com I am truly interested as I have never used anything except manure, compost and water. This year I am using some Advanced Nutrient products, pretty expensive, and if there is any reason to believe that I have bought some dead hens I would want my professional and personal "friends" to tell me.

4/23/2015 12:37:27 AM

anytown U.S,A,

I would have to agree with you Owen. If you throw out there that some Myco is no good or not as it is supposed to be. Then tell me I cant tell you who so we all don't make the same mistake. Then why even post. Its almost like rubbing it in your face and telling you I did my research and I am not going to share.

4/23/2015 5:57:51 AM

Deer Park, WI

The lab used for testing propagule viability is called "Mycoroots" out of Corvallis, OR. They do not have a web presence yet.

To those who are pressing for me to release the results, name names, etc, I've already explained above that I am not going to do that and I have what I believe to be legitimate reasons for my doing so.

Foremost, we need more testing. If I call out a manufacturer(s) as bogus, my fear is that "herd mentality" places absolute faith in the outcome.

I have two issues with that...we need more conclusive data from a wider sample set AND, as stated above, I will not assume sole responsibility for pointing a finger at any one manufacturer(s).

Please take a moment to put yourself in my shoes. As a scientist, i am compelled by ethics and integrity to share objective outcomes on research. When controversial results are observed, reputations can be ruined in a heartbeat if these results are not vetted by solid data and presented in a way that is fair and equitable. I have no interest in damaging the reputation of a company that might be producing good product simply because I observe one bad apple. Understand? If that company shows unacceptable quality through repeated analysis, then I am happy to lead that charge.

Hence back to my recurring theme...we need more tests.

4/23/2015 7:15:14 AM

Deer Park, WI

As to the reliability of manufacturer's QA analyses, take them with a grain of salt. If you are a business, you'd never send out a QA that was subpar. That's bad for business. So if you request a QA, you will get a good one. The question is, does that QA truly reflect whats in your bag? Maybe. Maybe not. The only way you can be sure? Im sounding like a broken record here...

Pool your resources, guys & gals. You dont have to go it alone. Got a group of local growers? A grower friend across the country?

Round up a couple of people and split the cost. Share the results. Make your own informed decisions.

Please understand that from a larger perspective, my original post was made not because Im a drama-loving pot stirrer (I abhor the "Days of our lives" that occurs too frequently on this great site). I made this post because I am genuinely concerned that a large number of my growing comrades are spending hard-earned money on dead product. It shouldnt be that way. I'd like to use the power of numbers to get to the bottom of this conundrum.

4/23/2015 7:23:55 AM

Knopp, Germany

I wish that I could send tissue samples or whatever is needed to the states to assist, but being in Europe that is not a possibility, customs you know.

Thank you Joze for the further clarification, yes I understand your points concerning professional reputations and how easily they can be tainted.

Going off subject I haven't had a new reason for having a lousy season in years, so if I may pen the term "dead hens", at least I will have a new excuse this year.

4/23/2015 7:43:13 AM

Central Illinois

If you test now and buy later you still may not get what you paid for

4/23/2015 8:01:31 AM

South East

Did you just open a bodemless pit Joze?

How about our:

- azos
- actinovate
- companion
- rootshield

Do they all contain the promised ingredients on a consistent basis or are we being exploited?

How about or seaweed extract, or kelp, or fish, anything biologic, true or false claims?

How about our fungicides are those claimes on the label true, are those chemicals really in it? who tests it?

What i am saying is that; once tested i,m sure that many products can found diverting from from promised claims. A little or a lot.

So do we now enter an age of testing, to make sure that all we use is true to its label?

What i dont understand Joze is that you feel that the test results you read are controversiel, and are not vetted by by solid data present in fair and and equitable way, and you feel there is a need for a wide data set.

but on the other hand, those results made you post this " be carefull for false claims" warning on bp.
For a scientist to post such a thing before having enough definite and conclusive data he must have been pretty rattled.

If anything you made me more curious to the results and who it is. Thanks for the warning though ;)

4/23/2015 10:22:15 AM

Kings Park, NY

From what I've read, storage conditions and handling procedures are the main concerns. If the spore count is off, then it's their fault. If it's dead spores it could be unintentional.

4/23/2015 10:54:52 AM

New England

what was the point of this post if you are not going to tell people what products failed miserably? I would hate to go drop a significant amount of well earned cash on something that someone is selling untruthfully. If I purchased a large quantity of a product only to find out that it tested with 0 live spores; I would be having a BIG issue and this is something that needs to be addressed ASAP

4/23/2015 11:46:11 AM

Deer Park, WI

Farmergal- please read and reread my responses a few posts above your message.

Frank/Tina- the pit is deep but not bottomless. You are correct in calling attention to other biological products on the market, however. For the products that contain bacteria as actives, there may be less concern as many/most of these bacteria exist in a relatively stable sporulated form. Bacterial spores in general have a much longer shelf life and aren't nearly as finicky as mycorrhiza.

Further, I believe that there is far more widespread use of mycorrhizal products by our group than the other biologicals, therefore I feel its important to first tackle the product with the largest volume and highest susceptibility to product quality.

Lastly, yes, I am pretty rattled by these results. The spread between the product with the highest propagule count and the product(s) that tested zero is alarming.

Once again though, before chicken little declares that the sky is indeed falling, a few more chickens and maybe some turkeys, geese, and ducks need to make the same observation.

(what's with all these chicken metaphors?)

4/23/2015 12:15:04 PM

Colorado

Ive heard two of the brands out there test good and the others test poor or poorer.Cant remember which was which:)

4/23/2015 12:40:52 PM

Seattle, WA

Are you testing the trichderma counts in the myco products that contain them as well? And are you differentiating between different species of endo mycorrhiza, say g. mossae and g. intrardices, etc....?

4/23/2015 1:30:41 PM

Whitehall Montana

I have heard of companies that had 40 percent filler in the product

4/23/2015 1:45:29 PM

Upa Creek, MO

Sometimes it might not be the manufacturer's fault, but the stores fault who is selling the product since most products expire if I understand correctly? I know the Advanced Nutrients products I used last year did not have an expiration date on them either (it was blank where it should have been stamped).

4/23/2015 4:02:41 PM

Georgetown, Ontario

Just out of curiosity, how much does it cost to have the testing done that you had Joze? What is the process for preparing for the test? Are there other companies that do this type of testing? Maybe we can all kick in a few $ and start a Kickstarter campaign to fund a bunch of testing. It sure would be nice to know if the results are consistent when duplicated a few times. Without knowledge of the test results it might be a good idea to use product from a couple different manufacturers.

4/23/2015 4:26:58 PM

SW Ohio

If this company doesn't have a web presence how did you find out about them?
And not to be a wet hen :) but it's always been a buyer beware world when it comes to product claims. I think most growers are capable of deciding if Product A performs better for them than Product B by doing some side by side trials in their patch.

4/23/2015 4:34:31 PM

Deer Park, WI

Regarding the testing procedure- the lab tests the product directly. They are not looking at root colonization, rather assessing viability of the "raw" product. There is not any type of species differentiation, this is strictly mycorrhizal propagule viability analysis.

as far as "40% filler" goes, understand that granular MF products contain a clay-based matrix, which serves as the "filler". This is necessary for product packaging and delivery. It is not meaningful to assess a product based on "filler". What is meaningful is the reported propagules/gram of product.

Regarding manufacturer's vs distributor's onus as it relates to product quality, steps were taken to ensure fresh product was utilized in the testing procedure. As such, distributor influence was minimized/negated.

Analysis through Mycoroots is $125 per sample. Sample submission is simple...send myco product directly to the lab.

Regarding lab awareness...its a simple process of due diligence. Ask around. Develop relationships with people "in the know". Investigate. Question. Research. I became aware of this outfit when I poked around on Ron's site. There's a wealth of information there that is very useful.

4/23/2015 5:12:55 PM

Eddyz@efirehose.net

As with the questions on BP, I have also fielded a few about the GPC and the WOW sponsorship. Specifically are we comfortable with the quality of products sold by WOW.
First of all, to become a sponsor to the GPC, all products sold by the company must also include test results, manufacturers labels and product description. This is part of the background checks that will be done for all potential sponsors when it comes to garden products and this is what will be given to the GPC for evaluation.
The last thing the GPC wants is to advertise a product that falls below expectations.
I have had several discussions with Ron about his products and will continue to.
Myco is a live product and testing can’t be once or twice, but ongoing and continuous.
The Myco sold by WOW goes through testing on a very regular basis. And here is what happens
For every 500 pounds of product produced, the RTI labs test their product for consistency and counts.
They also send a test out every 500 pounds to an independent lab for the very same tests and then compared.
Once the test results are completed and checked, then the product is sold.
And as Ron told me and I quote: Since "Ron Wallace" is putting his name and face on the bag that he also sends product out for independent testing to make sure the quality from the manufacturer is up to his standards. His last test results on product that has been purchased for WOW is on line @ www.wallacewow.com and always has been.

Bottom line and in keeping with the bird analogy: All chicks have arrived happy and healthy, all were hens and all are laying jumbo eggs!!!!
If there is an interest, I can add a description on Myco and how it’s made
Eddy Z

4/23/2015 5:56:55 PM

Colorado

RTI might have been one of the two good ones now that I think about it.

4/23/2015 6:58:49 PM

norway , maine

Always appreciate your posts Joze...Thanks for the heads up

4/23/2015 7:12:32 PM

Little-TON - Colorado

4/24/2015 8:56:33 AM

Germany

Instead of spending 100 $ on a test I would spend 100$ on another bag of a similar product from a different supplier, that should increase the odds of getting some roots inoculated, whereas the test tells you something but doesn´t help you any further as long as you don´t spend any additional money (unless you manage to claim back the money paid for the product incl. a refund of the costs for the analysis).

4/24/2015 10:34:30 AM

Team Munson

In the 1920's the farmers in Nebraska started a coop to determine the actual horsepower & performance as sales people were over selling & under delivering equipment to them. This testing is now the premier testing authority for all makes of tractors doing it independently & randomly.

http://tractortestlab.unl.edu/

I would think that as the hobby/sport grows it would be in the best interest of the hobby to have an independent party taking random samples & independently testing. As the vendors vie to take your money as we increase our visibility & size for their marketing purposes we need to make sure the growers have the actual facts prior to making their purchases.

4/24/2015 11:14:14 AM

Georgetown, Ontario

If lots of growers are using dead product and lots of growers are growing massive pumpkins, maybe we don't need it at all.

4/24/2015 3:40:21 PM

Seattle, WA

Have a conversation on mycorrhizal fungi going on another forum and this was my friend's post. Thought I would share it with you guys:

Interesting. It seems they don't realize that the spores are not alive per se', that they're all freeze dried. So there will be variable viability of the spores to germinate. This is why I suggest 500 spores per container, to make sure even with low germination rate hopefully enough spores will germinate to have sufficient infection.

I've been writing about this issue for many years, after I spoke with Dr. Douds on the phone a few times and he told me out of all the commercial products he tested for germination (viability) most had very low germination (he did this testing years ago).

That is why I always suggest using live propalogues whenever possible, as spores, infected roots of those hosts used to create the prologues, and bulk substrate that has live spores and hyphae. I have cultured host plants to use live propagules and it worked out really well. I used the INVAM culture bank to order live (non-freeze dried) spores to start my propagule 'farm' some years ago.

Some pages back in this thread I'm pretty sure I wrote about where to order live spores and infected roots/spores, from INVAM. If it was easier to order live spores from spore banks that is what I suggest to my clients. I plan to start up my propagule farm once I move, and maybe start selling to growers on pre-order basis.

Oh yea, Tad Hussey if you're a member of that forum they may be thankful if you suggest to them that they buy live cultures and create their own propagule farm to create their own inocculum of live propagules (easiest way is digging up the roots and substrate of the host plants and adding a bit to the root zone area of the plants they're infecting), rather than relying on commercial freeze-dried spores...

4/24/2015 5:08:00 PM

Upa Creek, MO

I have heard that a few times.. kinda like if you build a pond and add gallons of water from an established pond. Great post Tad.

4/24/2015 8:36:46 PM

anytown U.S,A,

Still trying to figure this whole thing out and put the pieces together.

Were these samples part of a field trial or case study? Or Joze did you sent these in to do your scientific evaluation?

You said you reviewed a number of lab analyses Just wondering if there was a trial of some kind?

I keep hearing the words of a well know professor from
U of I at a seminar I attended. He said Verify Results then Trust never Trust then Verify.

4/24/2015 9:28:14 PM

Weatherman

Caveupter means, buyer beware.

4/24/2015 9:33:31 PM

Deer Park, WI

Splicer-

no trial of any kind. I've simply had the opportunity to review a handful of lab reports as well as speak with others who've done the same. I've reviewed the results posted on Ron's site. I've reviewed results from samples sent in by fellow pumpkin growers. I've spoken to industry professionals who've performed their own independent trials. Out of this mileu, an alarming trend emerged.

4/24/2015 9:42:06 PM

Wi

Joe I would like to support your theory by doing some field testing this year. Labs are great but I like to base my decisions on how the machine preforms on the track. Where the rubber meets the road. Here we Grow :)

4/26/2015 7:20:06 AM

nOVA sCOTIA

as growers we spend lots of hard earned $$$$$ on product! More and more $$$ every year.Since you were so kind to tell us that Rons product is legit...can you be so kind to fill in the growing community on the one's that were not!!! Speak up please

4/26/2015 5:27:05 PM

nOVA sCOTIA

i think i will just keep soaking my garden socks in a 5 gall bucket of water for my spray program..lol

4/26/2015 5:34:39 PM

Upa Creek, MO

I have 3 different brands of mycos this year, hopefully one is good.

4/26/2015 5:40:07 PM

Whitehall Montana

Donkin just saw the patch pic at your house,not sure its going to thaw this year.LOL

4/26/2015 6:38:02 PM

Deer Park, WI

Chad- no one can dispute the incredible success you realized in the patch last year. The WI state record is an achievement I hope to pry from you soon. And I agree, field trials are where rubber meets the road. The trouble is, with so many variables in the field, its nearly impossible to associate any one factor to any success or failure.

Donkin- I've stated twice in this thread that I am not willing to disclose the results. Consider this the third. I'm sorry if that frustrates this audience. If you dont understand my reasoning why, please reread my posts. If you dont agree with my choice, then we will have to agree to disagree.

4/26/2015 6:46:58 PM

West Sacramento Ca.

Whenever we deal with people there are honest and dishonest.theres also honest mistakes. Try to go with reputable firms that have produced good products in the past.ask your reps and friends. Good luck

4/29/2015 4:36:48 PM

Glosta

The testing done was what? how did they determine the spore was dead and not dormant? I wrote an article a couple years back about cold stratification on increased myco spore germination and hyphael extension. the difference between no stratification and stratification was significant. The results made it seem like 50% of the unstratified spores were dead as they did not germineate. but the product stored for 120 days at 39*F had nearly 100% germination and the hyphael extension was significanylt further reaching.

SO can you release the type of test done and leave out the product / company names? Perhaps edit the document to state product A, B, C ...... so we can atleast see the results of the test without compromising the products images.

5/1/2015 1:30:50 AM

Glosta

http://www.mycoroots.com/services.html


Web presence

5/1/2015 1:37:23 AM

Glosta

One more concern I have with this thread is Mark's statement of 10 day trial. given that it takes time for the mycorhizzal fungi to grow and colonize i dont think a ten day trial will give anyone a definitive answer on whether a product is viable. ive read studies where the fastest colonization by glomus intraradices was 6 days on peppers , 12 days on cotton and 12 days on onion. given that these plants were used because of their high compatibility with VAM. The 10 day period is kinda misleading and i think noone would benefit from basing the product of it.


Refernece material
http://journal.ashspublications.org/content/115/6/938.full.pdf

5/1/2015 2:09:42 AM

Little-TON - Colorado

Spot on Bry...If it greens up that fast... perhaps one should look for other stuff in the mix... I have heard that some manufactures do this to fool the growers into thinking that their Mycho is working well and worth the money invested... Us seasoned growerZ know the diff... just my humble Wizzy educated opionion.. Now I will go back into hibernation again...lol

5/1/2015 11:26:50 AM