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Southeastern Idaho

If you cross pollinate a 2000 lb pumpkin with another 2000 lb pumpkin and produce a 400 lb pumpkin, would the seeds from that 400 lb pumpkin still have the potential to grow a 2000 lb pumpkin?

3/29/2015 4:24:15 PM

Upa Creek, MO

Absolutely. Many people will do a cross just to obtain the genetics as you described when they know they aren't growing for size. An example is if they don't have the room or time, but want a cross for the following season.

3/29/2015 4:50:16 PM

Menomonie, WI (mail@gr8pumpkin.net)

Yep...

3/29/2015 5:12:30 PM

Torrance, Ca.

Not in my patch but yes.

3/29/2015 5:17:04 PM

East Jordan, MI

look at snowball (matt's project from the 2009 a couple years ago)

3/29/2015 5:37:41 PM

Central NY

Jeans is jeans

3/29/2015 6:00:52 PM

Colorado

yes and no

3/29/2015 6:06:26 PM

Deer Park, WI

My two cents...if you cross a championship boar with a championship hog, would all the little piglets have the potential to be a champion pig?

As Mr. Scherber alludes to above, yes and no.

Each litter of offspring may have a runt, a handful of average performers, and possibly a rare champion.

The seeds inside a pumpkin follow the same train of logic.

While there's absolutely nothing you can do to identify the champion in a lot of seeds, you can control the parents you choose to use.

I've pasted here an except of an interview I did with Frank Finders last winter, it captures the essence of my opinion on this topic. The full article can be read here: http://www.stcroixgrowers.org/Articles.html

"...To that end, I believe there is some value in considering pollinator characteristics depending on your personal goals. If maximum weight is the goal, I believe choosing a seed whose parentage is a cross of maximum weight pumpkins is the most objective choice you can make. I call this simple analysis "cross weight average" and while it's a nifty tool for numbers geeks, there's no proof that using it will grow you bigger pumpkins. That said, here's an example- the 220 Debacco (2009 Wallace x 1725 Harp) is a cross of two very large fruit. Sure, each were world records, but I'm more focused on the fact that when you add them together (2009+1725=3734) and divide by two (1867), that number represents an average "cross weight" that is within 10% of the current world record. The 220 seedline has demonstrated that despite its small size, the seeds inside were a combination of upper echelon pumpkin genetics that have been born out in its progeny. If you are a believer in idea that selective breeding (seeds from heaviest x seeds from heaviest) contributes to a continually improving Atlantic Giant gene pool, then planting seeds with the highest "cross weight average" is the strategy by which your genetic potential is maxim

3/29/2015 7:01:12 PM

Deer Park, WI

"maximized" was the intended last word of my post above.

To further expound on this topic, I'd like to carry the discussion forward a step. If for nothing else than to spark lively debate. Without knowledge that Matt grew the 220 in a greenhouse over the winter, one could argue that despite its superior "cross weight average", the fact that it only grew to 220lbs suggests it was a runt.

This introduces another variable into the equation, that being the weight of the pumpkin that produced the seeds.

Simple question- you have two seeds to choose from. The only information provided is that each seed has identical parentage. for the sake of demonstration, lets say they are both 2009 Wallace x 1725 Harp crosses. One came from a 220lber, another from a 1800lber. Which would you choose to grow? Why?

To build upon my cross weight average theory, it may be worthy to consider adding the weight of the pumpkin from which the seed was taken into the equation.

(2009+1725+220)/3 = 1318
(2009+1725+1800)/3 = 1845

Again, if our goal is to continue pushing maximal weight, the only numerical, objective means to choose "ideal" seeds to to ensure the largest numbers in the seeds most recent lineage.

Here's a task for the eager...which seed out there has the greatest 3-variable cross weight average????

3/29/2015 7:20:26 PM

Deer Park, WI

As an aside, SCGA growers were fortunate to make some spectacular crosses with upper-tier 3-variable cross weight averages (3vCWA):

1873 Steil (2009 Wallace x 2328 Meier) = 2070 3vCWA
1832 Midthun (1779 Werner x 2328 Meier) = 1980 3vCWA
1781 Zywiec (1623 Wallace x 2328 Meier) = 1911 3vCWA
1675 Gehweiler (1623 Menting x 2328 Meier) = 1875 3vCWA

3/29/2015 7:54:06 PM

Cheshire Ma USA

2096 Meier [2328x2328]=2250.67 close second world record
2323.7 Meier [2009x2328[=2220.23
I wish I had a 2096, I bid on many at the auctions but they were out of my league, I am planting the 1832 Midthun and one of the Barrons for sure ,1947 is also on top of my list of 4 plants.

3/29/2015 9:07:09 PM

Stanwood, Washington

Just to add another wrinkle into this equation I think that our nomenclature that we use for the pollinator really doesn't tell the whole story.

going with the litter of pigs theory, Every plant grown on a particular seed has different characteristics. Its great to know that a particular pumpkin was pollinated by the 1725 Harp but it helps a lot to know weather the 1725 plant that the pollen came from produced a whopper or a runt.

For instance The 1623.5 Wallace was pollinated using the 1725 plant that produced the 2009. It would stand to reason that this plant would have better genetic potential than if it had been pollinated with one of the many 1725 plants that produced Pumpkins under 1000 pounds. Both seeds would say "1623.5 Wallace (1278 Goetze x 1725 Harp)" on the label but the genetic potential would be way different.

3/30/2015 11:59:49 AM

Stanwood, Washington

The biggest variable of all is the skill and resources of the grower. Not all 1500 pound Pumpkins are created equal. If a first year grower grows a 1500 pound pumpkin there is probably some pretty amazing genetics there. If a seasoned vet who regularly goes over 1700 pounds grows a 1500 pound pumpkin it could very well be a dud or at best have average genetics. We tend to grow seeds from the biggest pumpkins and the mostly come from the same hand full of expert growers. However with the genetics being such a crap shoot, I think it is likely that often the best genetics out there are in pumpkins that don't get the recognition because the growers aren't at an elite enough level to approach the 1 ton mark.

3/30/2015 12:08:08 PM

Soldotna,AK

Even more complex. How many growers are like Ron Wallace and Beni Meier and plant 2 -4 seedlings of the plant they want to grow and then cull to the best plant after they have grown out for several weeks? I think the vast majority plant a single seed thinking that seed has the genetic potential of all seeds of that kin. If you have an average seed of a 2009 you can be a great grower and it will get 1600 lbs. A poor grower might grow it to 600 lbs. The great grower won't grow it to 2000 lbs.

3/30/2015 4:36:53 PM

Deer Park, WI

Insightful contribution, Captain. Dial the clock back to 2010, I had proposed a revamped nomenclature system whereby the fruit weight of the pollinator was captured in our traditional nomenclature system (see link below for the thread on this topic). There was lukewarm receptivity to the idea, and that's where it sat to collect dust ever since. Indeed, this vital piece of information could add a 4th variable to the cross weight average metric and allow growers to make more informed decisions on seed selection.

http://www.bigpumpkins.com/MsgBoard/ViewThread.asp?b=3&p=372963

Patrick, to your point, there are a billion plus one environmental and human factors that will influence end weights.

When it comes to seed selection, I'll say it one more time, the best we can do is evaluate as many concrete, numerical factors in the seed's lineage as possible to create the greatest possible likelihood of maximized genetic potential.

3/30/2015 7:49:58 PM

Germany

Quote : " If maximum weight is the goal, I believe choosing a seed whose parentage is a cross of maximum weight pumpkins is the most objective choice you can make. I call this simple analysis "cross weight average" and while it's a nifty tool for numbers geeks, there's no proof that using it will grow you bigger pumpkins. That said, here's an example- the 220 Debacco (2009 Wallace x 1725 Harp) is a cross of two very large fruit. Sure, each were world records, but I'm more focused on the fact that when you add them together (2009+1725=3734) and divide by two (1867)....." :that means every cross of 2009x1725 has the same number, so no help to choose the best promising I think.
If I look for a cross of maximum parents weight: I would take average of the results of the specific parent-plants.
1873 Steil would result in (1873+886)2 or if you like 3 variables in ( 1873+1873+886)/3.
If pumkin was set on a clone I would use the maximum weight on that clone. ( ex.: 282 Scherber)

3/31/2015 7:17:12 AM