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Muddy Waters

1,109.00    Jarvis, Joel    St. Thomas    Ontario    Canada    Bracebridge Agriculture Society Fall Fair/Horse Show    1770 Jarvis X    1317 Clements    362.0    1,041.00
Went 7% heavy This seed has big genectics behind it grown in a cold year.

This seed could grow a world record in my Humble Opinion.    

1/3/2015 10:37:23 AM

BC, Canada

Bubba what's the x for the 1770? I didn't see it on Pumpkinfanatic data base.
You going to cross the 1317 back to the 1947? That could have some potential, maybe!
Thanks

1/3/2015 12:18:50 PM

Muddy Waters

The X simply means the cross the 1770female X 1317male

Im thinking the 1317 I will cross into a few this year Orange & heavy into big & heavy.The 1317 is as good as it gets for genectics.IMHHO.

1/3/2015 12:33:22 PM

Wixom MI.

I have a 1770 jarvis dmg. If you are in need of one mark !

1/3/2015 12:43:20 PM

Ely Mn

i think he is asking what is the cross of the 1770

1/3/2015 12:50:08 PM

Wixom MI.

Mark gave me the 1770 whithout the parents on it ! It must be marks little secret! LOL...:)

1/3/2015 1:23:33 PM

Germany

should be: 1770 Jarvis DMG EST 2013 (1623 Wallace x 1381 Delaney) ?!

1/3/2015 1:33:17 PM

BC, Canada

Bubba, I know what the x is! But thanks, I meant what is the cross (X) that the 1770 came from.
I heard recently it's classified.
DNA testing to follow.
Maybe Patryk's got it.

1/3/2015 2:06:00 PM

nOVA sCOTIA

thank you Patryk !

1/3/2015 2:07:00 PM

Muddy Waters

1623 Wallace

1/3/2015 3:31:19 PM

Muddy Waters

lol I took you literally these forums do that.The point Im trying to make is the 1109 was small due to cold weather.The genetics are in that pumpkin to go huge.The 1623 Wallace pumpkin had a lot that split.With the 1317 heavy not any split that I now of it should help cure the splitting issue and grow a big kin.Grow the 1109 is what Im saying.

1/3/2015 3:39:26 PM

St.thomas

...Not to mention "throw in the towel" hail early august over the entire patch.
http://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=224938.

You've got "Power x Percent heavy" there Bubba. How about..."Percent heavy x Power"...this is the 1317 Clements x 1623 Wallace that went to our local fair and was insanely heavy.

4 similar sets on the same plant grown 'Cinderella style' for the kids and still the pumpkins were coming off over 800 lbs! I'm sorry I doubted the 1317's potential...I won't make the same mistake this year, lol!

http://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=224938

1/3/2015 5:04:51 PM

St.thomas

Sorry, here's one of the 'Cinderella's off the 1317 clements

http://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=230374

874 Jarvis 2014 (1317 Clements x 1623 Wallace)

...there's another little one with big genetics;)

1/3/2015 5:24:30 PM

Muddy Waters

There are a lot of great crosses out there for various reasons went south on said grower.If your looking for some great seeds.You must first read between the lines.I know if the 1317 was grown in my 2014 patch it would of been the 1817.Call me crazy,most folks do.But what I say is true.I can only grow 8 kins this year,I would love to prove my theory by growing the 1109.I might ask my neighbor if I can till there old garden up.lol It has sat for 4 or 5 Years now.Should be well rested.Just food for thought as Cabin Fever sits in.

1/3/2015 6:28:04 PM

Upa Creek, MO

Was the 1161 Rodinis an immediate impact or did it grow a couple giants, people took notice and then got grown by the top growers the following years? I'm always curious on how some seed popularities derive.

1/3/2015 7:11:56 PM

Upa Creek, MO

Rodonis

1/3/2015 7:12:26 PM

Whitehall Montana

So What if a pumpkin like a 1725 harp selfed only came in at 100 lbs.
Would you grow that seed full well knowing it came in small?

1/3/2015 8:00:25 PM

nOVA sCOTIA

i think the both of you should grow the 1109 and prove it out...lol

1/3/2015 8:02:14 PM

Wixom MI.

Dont forget the 220 snow ball grew a 1744

1/3/2015 8:04:19 PM

Whitehall Montana

So it might still be a 50/50 this,aguess and by golly.I may give it a go.I think the big thing was the 220 got a lot of hype and did not produce as well as I thaught.

1/3/2015 8:09:39 PM

Muddy Waters

Now to prove it the soil must right and the weather.So 1 try might not do it.I think a lot is taken for granted.

1/3/2015 8:27:33 PM

Whitehall Montana

I only have space for 2 so might hold off

1/3/2015 8:46:02 PM

Ltb

220 is a small pumpkin with big genetics

1/3/2015 10:25:00 PM

Whitehall Montana

220 low germ rates,great genetics,in my book still unproven.I did use a 1478 Scherber last year with half 220 and it had the biggest stump I ever seen.I crossed it with a 1479 parent and had my PB ever.It was still small compared to most but all right none the less

1/3/2015 11:17:11 PM

Minnesota

377Brouillard, Don't forget about! Big Genetics-2009 pollinated by 1789!

1/3/2015 11:40:47 PM

Colorado

I think the seeds in the 220 debacco werent totally mature. I started two that first year and they took 5 days to see the root radicle appear. Most seeds take 17 to 30 hours. That seed has a lot of potential but prob. needs to be outcrossed a little. I was surprised the 1734 stiel didnt grow more biggens

1/4/2015 2:01:21 AM

Kentucky, U.S.A.

My 220 genetics 845 O'Brian 13 had a insane stump and four inch vine x 14 feet. Massive foamer, pumpkin was doomed early on but did get an est. 560lbs. A few seeds available!

1/4/2015 7:45:35 AM

Muddy Waters

Big show dog Sounds like way to much nitrogen going.Did you keep the stump area dry? or did you water heavy?

1/4/2015 9:01:15 AM

Whitehall Montana

I just don't know that clones is the way to go,sure the genetics are good but I think without letting the pumpkin mature with the plant it ends up missing something in the long run.The 220 D had a lot of immature seeds and really only a few big pumpkins.I would rather bet money on a pumpkin with good genetics that matured small but was allowed to stay on the plant the entire season.

1/4/2015 10:38:08 AM

Bethlehem CT

Our thinking on what seeds to plant have definitely changed since the 1725 Harp . It used to be that the pumpkin that grew the world record was not looked upon as the one to grow the next year. It was always the smaller pumpkin that was pollinated by the world record pumpkin that would get planted and proved by the best growers. A few examples that come to mind would be; The 1385 Jutras, (1068 Wallace X 998 Pukos) The 998 was what produced the 1689 World record. Another one that comes to mind is the 1161 Rodonis. The male pollinator for that one was off the plant that produce the world record 1566 Rodonis.

1/4/2015 12:33:15 PM

Bethlehem CT

The 1725 Harp changed all that. It's first year out it was grown by a handful of growers that were very impressed with what they saw. The second year out it was planted heavily and by all the best growers. Then everyone saw what it could do when Ron Wallace grew the freak. There was a magic to that 1725 seed. Never before had a pumpkin had such incredible growing power. Ron got another shot at the 1725 the next year and was able to hook back into a good one. He grew the 2,009. Ever since that time all 2,000 pounders have genetics from 2009 and 1725. In the past couple of years growers have had fantastic luck growing seed from the heaviest of that year. WIll this year be any different? Will we reach a point where the negatives of inbreeding begin to outweigh the positives?

1/4/2015 12:46:29 PM

Bethlehem CT

Cucurbits are not known to exhibit inbreeding depression like many other crops. That is not to say it won't occur. It is just saying inbreeding can be done quite successfully for many generations without seeing any really disastrous effects. Atlantic giants have certainly come along way in the past few years and the gene pool is smaller than ever.
I have often wondered if we are seeing the effects of inbreeding in our giant squash. I have grown squash and have found them to be more difficult to grow. Pollinations are difficult, abortion rates are high. they seem to reallly shut down when the weather is hot. Has the 615 Cantrell brought new life into squash and can we bring back and maybe even get squash weights close to that of the AG's?

1/4/2015 12:54:15 PM

Connecticut

The 220.3 DeBacco ’13 “Snowball” seeds overall seemed slow to germinate for all growers. Sadly, I think early on some growers did not wait a little longer and tossed them out before they sprouted. Some growers did not report any germination problems and shared seedlings with other growers. Even when sprouted some growers said it was a slow plant to start. I had this seed and a 2009 Wallace right next to one another and there were a lot of early similarities. After the vine got to be about 4ft long the plants kicked into gear and pumpkin growth was above average once set.

While the seeds in the 220 were all solid and I thought the pumpkin being 56 days old would be enough for maturity. There was some great success with the seed the first year out with two pumpkins over 1,700 pounds and both in the top-15 in the world for the year.

Where I think clones have the greatest potential is when they are used as a pollinator to ensure the best of the best are being incorporated into the cross. In the 220’s case it was not pollinated with any 1725 Harp it was THE plant that grew the 2009 Wallace.

In my opinion I think that even though this was a limited sample size there is some real potential with breeding with clones. The 220 was the first test and I am going to call it a great success. In 2013 there were only 9 different seeds that weighed a pumpkin heavier than the 220 considering there were over 1,500 pumpkins weighed. Trying something new and radical is not always easy but seeing this success has provided hope that this could offer a way to speed up the pumpkin genetic selection process.

You can also see my post on 11/27/2013 @ 5:38PM
http://www.bigpumpkins.com/MsgBoard/ViewThread.asp?b=19&p=492570

1/4/2015 12:56:55 PM

Wixom MI.

Dont forget, matt collected the seeds from the 220 while it was very young and still growing that would be the main reason the seeds were imiture ! He only harvested them so young so that people had a chance to try growing them. Im sure if he let it mature properly that their would have been no germination problems. So looking past that part of it,it showed us that you can have great genetics come from a small pumpkin.

1/4/2015 1:06:45 PM

Connecticut

I will also toss the little 179.4 DeBacco ’14 into the mix. Here the breeding strategy was a little different. I decided to take seeds from a pumpkin that was the result of breeding two clones together. (Thanks cojoe!) This was the 335 Scherber ’11 that took the 1421.5 Stelts that grew the 1663 Zoellner and crossed it with the 1161 Rodonis that grew the 1725 Sweet. I really liked the 1421.5 Stelts because I noticed some powdery mildew resistance in the greenhouse. I then breed this with the 1734.5 Steil ’13 which is a 220.3 DeBacco “Snowball” x self.

So all of the genetics were there but it seems the willingness of growers to take a chance on this unproven seed were low. Who can blame them when there are so many proven seed out there. However, I want to thank those three growers that did give it a chance and I have not heard of any complaints from them. Out of only three one was 1644.5 pounds the other grew a new personal best for a grower beating his old record by 515.5 pounds and the last grower had his best pumpkin of 2014 from this seed.
See link below and post on 11/5/14 at 8:34PM
http://www.bigpumpkins.com/MsgBoard/ViewThread.asp?b=19&p=525643

Also, to make improvements I let this 179.4 DeBacco “Marshmallow” mature for 70 days in hopes of ensuring no food storage/germination issues. I am caught with a short winter season since I want to produce a mature pumpkin (with seeds) in-time for growers to plant in the typically spring time so that they can be one year ahead based on the genetic cross. This is no easy task and a lot has to go right for this to occur and I know I have been fortunate to do this in back to back years

1/4/2015 1:22:00 PM

Connecticut

In short, I think genetics for growing giant pumpkins are important and they can be found in little pumpkins. It can be easier to see big pumpkins and equate the genetics (genotype) to what is easily seen (phenotype). Trying to select some of the great genetics in little is more of a challenge because they often do not get the attention, even though they can have the same potential.

1/4/2015 1:22:19 PM

Wixom MI.

Hey matt your post wasnt up their when i was writing mine, i hope that my post is corect

1/4/2015 1:26:27 PM

Whitehall Montana

I wonder what the 220 would have produced,if left to obtain full size and weight.It was grown under near perfect conditions and may have been as big or bigger the 2009.I know great time and expense was taken to grow the 220 to get seeds out in every ones hands but still have to wonder what it would have produced at full size.

1/4/2015 1:28:12 PM

Connecticut

wixom-grower(chris): Your post is correct this is one of the great challenges to get seeds in-time for the normal season. 56 days should be enough but potentially in the winter season I may need a few more to increase germination success. My 179.4 "Marshmallow" was 70 days old with no germination problems reported.

Slim: to be honest the 220 would not have been much bigger as there are restrictions that I am under in the greenhouse. Mainly I think light (amount and intensity) is a factor and also that the soil is prepared to grow a pumpkin. I am not looking to grow a 1,000+ pound pumpkin in the winter I just want the cross and the weight of the pumpkin does not really matter to me. My main goal is the genetics. Having said that it was grown on the 2009 Wallace so if conditions were near ideal I guess there was 2300+ pound potential;-)

1/4/2015 2:16:00 PM

Muddy Waters

This is great information,I was looking more at kins in the 900 to even 1600 lbs.That had potential to do much better under different conditions.Point being dont always look at the top of the pile for great genetics they are everywhere.

1/4/2015 2:18:06 PM

Connecticut

Hi Bubba-

In the 900-1600 lb range I would give this seeds a look...

1330.5 Keys '13 (F: 1421 Boyce x 1508 Breznick)
It grew a 1,649 pound pumpkin all the way up in the northern (cold) part of Vermont. This also has no 2009 Wallace genetics.

1338 Martin '13 (F: 1872 Wallace x 220.3 DeBacco)
I like the pollinator (no surprise) but this seed did grow a 1750.5 pound pumpkin also;-)

1524 Fulk '12 (F: 1807 Stels x 1381 Checkon)
This is another one that comes to mind. It has produced two heavy to chart pumpkins with the largest being 1684.3 pounds.

1/4/2015 2:35:05 PM

Whitehall Montana

Its remarkable the 2009 plant or cutting at that point made it through that extended period of time.The plant hormones had to have changed as less light was available towards fall and then back inside where it received more light to bloom again.I find that amazing

1/4/2015 4:19:05 PM

Guelph, ONT

How about the 454 LaRiviere seed? The best of both snowball X 2009 ! I still believe in this one.. It was a awesome plant with Huge vines..
Or the 1104 Wallace, the pumpkin that came from the plant that pollinated the 2009 WR

As well I grew a small one, 1756 Lancaster X 1104 Wallace.
That I attend to grow . 1317 Clements X 1320 Aasman would be nice too...both orange

1/4/2015 7:34:17 PM

Muddy Waters

Thanks Matt, Great topic if I do say so myself.lol

1/4/2015 9:30:09 PM

Fairfield, CT, 06825

Grow 1625.5 (20009 x1725) Harp blew BES at 1002lbs at day 38-39 DAP. Miller potential times more in my opinion. one of my top picks for 2105.

1/5/2015 1:03:27 AM