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Eganville, Ontario

I have a pretty heavy duty commercial tiller, which I set to the deepest possible setting and make sure to get to that depth by moving slowly. I'm probably only getting 12" deep, as most garden tiller max out at.

I noticed, as I'm pulling out my vines this year that a lot of thick roots at each node are shooting straight down as far as I can pull them up. The stump felt like a tree root as I tried to pull it out. In a perfect world, how deep would you like your soil loose? I have about 12" of jacked up, well balanced, soil tested soil, but would I be better with two or even three times that volume? Rich soil 24" deep? 36" deep?

It's not something that I can pull off right now, but I'm wondering would deeper loaded soil cause bigger healthier plants and fruit? Or am I undervaluing the hard-pan? Mr. Beni grows in a controlled soil-less mixture which I'm guessing is loose deeper than my 12 inches or so.

10/27/2014 3:39:59 PM

Torrance, Ca.

Great question Ryan.

10/27/2014 5:33:04 PM

Anamosa, IA BPIowegian@aol.com

As long as you have good drainage, deeper should be better. I don't see any advantage to a hard pan. Beside limiting rooting depth, hard pan will restrict drainage, leading to roots in wet soil and an invitation to disease. That is why some growers use broadforks, to break up hardpan. Common sense tells you that healthier roots can take up more nutrients for better growth.

My father in law had good results by breaking up hard pan with deep chiseling his corn fields. After 100 years or more of moldboard plowing, his flat corn field was always muddy at harvest time. The first year he chiseled, it pulled so hard it nearly bounced him out of the tractor seat. The next year he chiseled at a 90 degree angle and it pulled a little easier. The 3rd year the chisel pulled like a hot knife through butter. He didn't get stuck anymore, and his yields went up.

10/27/2014 6:32:03 PM

Ohio

This might help:

http://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=95954

10/27/2014 6:55:04 PM

Eganville, Ontario

Like is said, it's not something I'll do right now, I'm thinking out loud. I had to actually build my two growing areas from scratch with tree and stump removal, then clearing, then digging a hole and lastly bringing in way too much top soil $$ ( the hole was three feet in some areas. )


I'm sure a 24" till would be much better than what most of us are doing right now with standard till. However, if you have really good soil in the top 12", with natural earth below, I'm guessing that with a 24" deep tilling you would "water down" your loaded top 12" after the deep till was complete.

After a few years of adding compost or your choice of additive, and also deep tilling, I would guess growing conditions would improve to a higher level than they were with a loaded 12" soil till depth.

10/27/2014 7:46:35 PM

Bowdon, GA

I don't know much about pumpkins but most of the vine crops I have grown rarely grow any roots below 12". I think drainage would be the biggest benefit to a deep soil profile. If you use a 3pt tiller it creates a hard pan very quickly, much faster than some traditional plows. The tines actually beat the subsoil at the max depth you till. I use a tiller so every fall when the ground is dry I use a sub soiler every few feet. The drier the subsoil the more fracturing you get down deep. It provides better drainage and less run off.

10/27/2014 8:14:04 PM

Muddy Waters

Where do get a tiller that goes 12 inches deep? I want one.Is this big farm equipment?The tillers Ive seen only go 6 inches.

10/28/2014 8:01:51 AM

Nottingham, UK

I guess the deeper you go the less oxygen and therefore less microorganisms. But how deep is too deep?


Here's a shot of some rye grass roots. http://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=216420

It will be good to check my patch in spring to see how deep they go. It might give me an idea as to optimum depth even if it is not a pumpkin plant

10/28/2014 9:03:31 AM

Little-TON - Colorado

Broad Fork workZ well for breaking up the hard pan....We have used a fork lift to turn over soil and breakup our concrete. Hard FreeZe over winter broke it down, but it was like starting over again building up the tilth in the soil....but we had better drainage after that... I would love to find a subsoiler and a big AZZ tractor to drag it through our patches.... but the broadfork buildZ character....

10/28/2014 9:45:02 AM

Long Island,New York

Dont exclude temperature as a preference for root growth....I bet warmer soils have deeper root growth. Perhaps a greenhouse assists in warmer consistent soil temps.......

10/28/2014 1:05:52 PM

Eganville, Ontario

You're right Mark, I'm probably not down a foot. I bury my Honda FRC800 and when I shovel down AFTER I till, I'm about 12" to the hard stuff, but it's fluff soil and probably only 7-8" of actual tilling.

I think the roots would go down a couple feet if there was top end soil. After a week in a gallon pot, the seedling roots are swirling at the bottom of a 9" pot.

10/28/2014 2:25:21 PM

Menomonie, WI (mail@gr8pumpkin.net)

Calcium Peroxide

10/28/2014 4:19:30 PM

Little-TON - Colorado

4 feet plus... and this is just a pepo

http://www.soilandhealth.org/01aglibrary/010137veg.roots/010137ch33.html

10/28/2014 4:58:13 PM

South of Buffalo

I have a front tine tiller and have used mid tine Hondas rented from home depot and I easily get 12 inches deep that is the measure from the bottom of the tines to the guard on top. Use the depth gauge in the back and let it till itself in. Rear tine cannot go as deep based on their design but they are a whole lot easier to use. That being said if you till repeatedly to 12 inches you will have a hard pan that needs breaking up. On a smaller area a broad fork should be fine. the best depth is most likely relative to each growers conditions.

10/28/2014 6:26:54 PM

Colorado

Ive heard of growers getting amendments down two to three feet and having adverse results cause of anaerobic conditions

10/29/2014 12:39:59 AM

Muddy Waters

I hate to pop your 12 inch bubbles.lol But you measure from the tine to the axle,thats 6 inches your tilling.When they make a 12 inch let me know that would be great.I plow my patch 12 inches every year.That flips it all over and totally breaks the hard pan up.It also helps kill disease,I plow in November right before the freeze.I have grown in the same spot for 5 years now without a break.We will see how long I can do this & get decent weights on healthy plants.

10/29/2014 7:57:44 AM

South of Buffalo

Well Bubba, All I tried doing was to share some information for what happens with FRONT and MID tine tillers, add to the original post and I am curtly corrected by you. If your tiller cuts in 12+ inches to the guard under the engine then your getting a 12in + till it does not matter what the length of the tine to the axle is.
Honda mid tine fc600 has a 14in diameter tine which when sunk to the engine guard yields a 14 in+ till not 7inches.

10/29/2014 8:54:19 AM

Central Illinois

A good front tine tiller could probable bury itself if you have the energy and time to do it

10/29/2014 9:13:32 AM

South of Buffalo

Exactly baitman, as I said in my original response rear tines are a whole lot easier to use but do not "bury in" as far.

regardless of this nonsense, till depth is dependent on each growers soil type clay to loam and where the hard pan is, balanced soil is probably more important that depth

10/29/2014 9:25:49 AM

Menomonie, WI (mail@gr8pumpkin.net)

My Ferrari Angello has 11 Inch Tines. If you push down on the handles you can go about 16". I used to till 3 acres with this beast, several times a year. 16 Pure Diesel HP. To much tiller for my 25 x 50 patch. But I would never sell it.
http://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=17327

10/29/2014 1:13:53 PM

Upa Creek, MO

I hand turned everything with shovel this year about 15 inches down then tilled the top 10. My best plant and fastest growing pumpkin yet till she blew out her backside on me one night. It's a lot of work but will be doing again next year. Helps burn off that winter gut.

10/29/2014 2:49:07 PM