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lancaster ohio

I have decided to raise Bella in a back to eden style garden this year. I have been doing a lot of reading and have came to the conclusion that this a lot of people out there have been gardening this way with great success. I started this discussion to see if anyone out there has ever heard of this back to eden method and has had any luck. There is a video on YouTube that is very inspiring about this method and I incourage anyone that has not seen it to take some time to watch it. I loved it. I'm going to name the seed I got off Cecil at the meeting for the beginners contest Eden. Please chim in and let me no if anyone out there has an opinion on this topic

4/2/2014 11:26:47 AM

Stanwood, Washington

There are a lot of tried and true methods that are considered essential to growing a big one that would be difficult to accomplish with this type of gardening but it doesn't hurt to try. The only way the hobby will continue to progress is if we keep trying new things.

4/2/2014 12:08:33 PM

lancaster ohio

I agree in order for a method to be tried and true someone down the vine had to of tried it until it was proven true. I'm the type of guy that gets inspired easily. So easily it causes me to have A.D.D sometimes I also like to keep a student mentality. This is why I would like to see if anybody has tried it with the pumpkin family tree. So I can prepare to prevent any mistakes they my have mad during the process and try to tweak it to produce great results. Best of all this method is all organic and does not hurt the earth we care so deeply about.

4/2/2014 12:43:10 PM

Menomonie, WI (mail@gr8pumpkin.net)

Like getting into a nascar race with a Nissan Leaf or Toyota Prius.. You may complete the race but you are not going to get in any of the top places.

4/2/2014 1:27:53 PM

lancaster ohio

Any why would the back to eden method be like placing a Prius in a nascar race? How do you know this method is not like dropping a tank into a crash up derby event. Predict nothing until it has proven predictable

4/2/2014 4:38:04 PM

Stanwood, Washington

There are several problems I see.
1. Giants are very particular with their needs from the soil. Most growers add many pounds of additives to their patch every year. I suppose you could try just layering the additives on top and hoping it percolates through but I suspect with out tilling you would just have a very thin layer that is so stacked with nutrients that it would nuke the plant.

2. The roots can go down up to 2 feet. many growers use broad forks or soil rippers to break up hard pan and loosen the dirt down low so that the roots can expand through the soil easier. You cant really do this without disturbing the upper layer of soil.

3. Everyone who is serious about growing is using Mychoraizae. You need to get this into the root zone. again hard to do without tilling.

4. Most growers bury vines to promote root growth this would be pretty hard to do with a layer of wood chips in the way.

I am sure there are beneficial aspects of the Eden Method but basically you would have to throw out 80% of the stuff that has been proven to work and hope that benefits gained from the Eden method would be enough to offset that.

4/2/2014 8:19:26 PM

Menomonie, WI (mail@gr8pumpkin.net)

Prove me wrong Bella...I am no Heavy Hitter. I have gardened all my life. I know for Giant Pumpkins that the garden of eden method will not work to achieve maximum size. If you only desire a pumpkin it may work.

4/2/2014 8:41:13 PM

Honesdale Pa USA

I'm not optimistic about it but what the hell give it a try!

4/2/2014 10:13:57 PM

lancaster ohio

Mycorrhizae, which are fungi that can form beneficial associations with roots, also are affected by mulches and composts. A shallow layer of wood chips (1-2") or compost improves tree establishment because mycorrhizae are stimulated by the slow release of organic sources of nitrogen and carbon in organic matter. However, a deep layer (4-6") of the same freshly chipped wood has been shown to inhibit the development of mycorrhizae during reforestation. Negative effects on mycorrhizae must be avoided in the landscape because they are very important in the maintenance of healthy plants.

4/2/2014 11:55:08 PM

lancaster ohio

http://ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/3000/3304.html

4/2/2014 11:56:32 PM

lancaster ohio

Mycorrhizae uses up all the nitrogen and carbon in the area and gives it to the host plant. Using wood chips as a layer along with a nitrogen based organic materiel enhances the amount your host can be fed. Mycorrhizae can be found growing on forest trees including but not limited to oaks and pines. So by using wood chips from these sources not only does it mycorrhizae form in your soil it will stay there using this method. Mother Nature has been providing us with this stuff since evolution so why pay for it now when we can just borrow it from. There's an abundance of this stuff. After a few years of staking your soil this way just like Mother Nature does it in the forest your soil will be so loose you and deep you'll finally get it. The heavyset pumpkin from in the world got disqualified correct? Did he bury his vines? No. Because of rot issues. It's simple. Pull back chips place vine on dirt and cover back up. No rotting.

4/3/2014 12:12:15 AM

lancaster ohio

Mycorrhizae uses up all the nitrogen and carbon in the area and gives it to the host plant. Using wood chips as a layer along with a nitrogen based organic materiel enhances the amount your host can be fed. Mycorrhizae can be found growing on forest trees including but not limited to oaks and pines. So by using wood chips from these sources not only does it mycorrhizae form in your soil it will stay there using this method. Mother Nature has been providing us with this stuff since evolution so why pay for it now when we can just borrow it from. There's an abundance of this stuff. After a few years of staking your soil this way just like Mother Nature does it in the forest your soil will be so loose you and deep you'll finally get it. The heavyset pumpkin from in the world got disqualified correct? Did he bury his vines? No. Because of rot issues. It's simple. Pull back chips place vine on dirt and cover back up. No rotting.

4/3/2014 12:13:34 AM

lancaster ohio

How do I cultivate mycorrhizae?

The good news for many readers, is that you probably already know how to cultivate these important mycorrhizal fungi. Some of the primary, basic principles of "sustainable" or "organic" agriculture are also the primary practices required to cultivate a healthy, balanced population of native mycorrhizal species. A complex as soils are, by focusing on some core management practices, your mycorrhizal population will flourish.

Briefly, some of the most important practices to focus on are:

Improving organic matter through the addition of compost.

Elimination of synthetic pesticides and fertilizers.

Balanced soil ammendment practices.

Minimal tillage/herbicide-free no-till.

Rotation of crops within garden beds by season and year.

4/3/2014 12:30:23 AM

Elk County, PA

Read the interview he did with ovgpg. He burried the knodes for three weeks then uncovered after roots formed. And you said you came here looking for opinions but challenged them all. Looks like your mind is made up and nothing left to do but prove them wrong. Good luck.

4/3/2014 12:31:31 AM

lancaster ohio

There's a butt load of material out there that proves this method worthy.

4/3/2014 12:36:38 AM

Elk County, PA

I would say depends on what your goal is and what you want to accomplish

4/3/2014 12:40:42 AM

lancaster ohio

I did come here for opinions and I am I initialed mine as we'll. Your right my mine is made up. Like I said in the beginning I will be growing both Bella and Eden this way. And I don't need luck I have research and mother nature on my side. Now I expect this method to fail the first year but as soon as my soil is build up after awhile I expect to be the world record holder not just state. My only fear is that someone out there has got a head start on me. ;)

4/3/2014 12:59:56 AM

Elk County, PA

Well if mother nature is on your side send nice weather my way. Now what about svbs, stinkbugs, etc. That's the real challenge growing pumpkins organically. As well as plant disease. I'm ignorant on the matter but I don't think an all organic pumpkin has held the record but I could be wrong.

4/3/2014 1:11:06 AM

Menomonie, WI (mail@gr8pumpkin.net)

Bravo SHHHHH! let Bella learn

4/3/2014 7:26:38 AM

Wi

Bella, I was going to post this a few days ago starting a new thread, but I guess I'll do it here and maybe again somewhere else.

Anyone that thinks they are being innovative in growing pumpkin is kidding themselves about 99% of the time. Reason being? There are LOT....lot of very smart people here that have tried about every trick under the sun trying to one up the competition. If it's worked then you will see all the HH's doing it...and continue to do it. It's the tiny changes / innovations that the HH's make that make the difference in almost all cases.

If you are trying something that the HH's are not doing, then it's probably not going to work because it's already been tried and proven ineffective. Nothing against your drive to succeed and try something new.

The best way to grow a world class pumpkin is find a world class grower near you and do exactly what they do.

4/3/2014 8:58:18 AM

Elk County, PA

Your right.

4/3/2014 9:09:40 AM

lancaster ohio

Lol, it's funny I keep hearing all about how this method won't work. I have yet to hear from someone that actually has tried it and proved it to be a bad way to go. Bravo I talked to Mother Nature and she told me that she will make a deal with you. She has agreed to supply you with the perfect weather conditions providing you stop ripping into her beautiful skin with that damn tiller. You all are stubborn let me tell ya. That's ok tho because so am I. I'll fit right in here...I hope when my daughter gets old enough to understand all this and come to you guys for help with an innovative idea you don't shut the door on her like you are doing me. This hobby is meant to be a fun learning experience with a scientific approach. If shes anything like me tho she will read all the skeptical comments and it will only add fuel to her drive.

4/3/2014 11:08:25 AM

Upa Creek, MO

I tried organic for disease and insect control 2 years ago - I did find I could control powdery mildew with milk, actinovate and Organicide. Vine borers will be your issue, once they get inside the plant, it'll go down fast. You'll have no idea till its too late. The larva will enter anywhere they can too, not just the base of the main vine like some sites state on the web. Good luck and curious to see how it goes.

4/3/2014 11:52:11 AM

Menomonie, WI (mail@gr8pumpkin.net)

In no way are we shutting the door. We are opening your door and making you face the weather. That being the truth behind what it takes to grow a giant pumpkin. Please grow two of the same seeds. You do one the "Garden of Eden" Style and then do one with our method. We will then compare the results. Please note "Garden of Eden" does not get water, fertilizer, insecticides, or fungicides.

Prove us wrong

4/3/2014 1:14:43 PM

Menomonie, WI (mail@gr8pumpkin.net)

If you want to grow a few vegetables for eating the "Garden of Eden" method is good.

4/3/2014 1:16:22 PM

lancaster ohio

We'll before I can conduct such an experiment I will need to allow my soil to develop a web. That can take a couple years. If someone has already been doing this to there garden for awhile they wold be a better canidate than me at the time. I'm not crazy I promise lol. Look at every artical online and show me one that says by tilling your garden the mycrorrizzae will benefit. It will continue flourish in soil that is not disurtubed. When you till it you interrupt everything they have worked all season to create and you are back to square one.

4/3/2014 3:30:58 PM

lancaster ohio

I'm finding it a bit difficult to convene the local tree services and food banks to bring me there scraps. I've so far got about a 20x20 foot area covered in chips at about 5" deep. To deep to soon will have a negative effect on the process. Now I need a good sorce of organic nitrogen like grass or rooted fruit for the next layer. This will have to be covered with another layer of wood chips. Than manure than woodchips than grass than woodchips and so on and so forth for then next 5 years.

4/3/2014 3:40:34 PM

lancaster ohio

I'm finding it a bit difficult to convence the local tree services and food banks to bring me there scraps. I've so far got about a 20x20 foot area covered in chips at about 5" deep. To deep to soon will have a negative effect on the process. Now I need a good sorce of organic nitrogen like grass or rooted fruit for the next layer. This will have to be covered with another layer of wood chips. Than manure than woodchips than grass than woodchips and so on and so forth for then next 5 years.

4/3/2014 3:41:32 PM

Little-TON - Colorado

In 5 years the top pumpkin weight will be 2700 lbs....Your N is going to be tied up... Better to incorporate Myco with Rye grass tilled under...twice a year...and accerlate your Myco population that way....

4/3/2014 4:50:20 PM

Little-TON - Colorado

Whilst Adam slept Eve arose, strange how his first sleep should be his last repose.......

4/3/2014 4:51:21 PM

lancaster ohio

Accelerate mycrorrizzae by TILLING? Smh in no way will tilling accelerate mycrorrizea. It will do the complete opposite. Now I do agree with using a cover crop like rye or clover. With this back to eden method we would not till it in the soil but rather cover it up with a layer of carbon based material like crushed leaves or wood chips. I also agree with the weight of the pumpkin being 2700lbs in five years. That will be my pumpkin. There will be no nitro loss unless the wood chips were integrated into the soil.

4/3/2014 5:37:02 PM

Torrance, Ca.

Oh why, oh why did he let her eat that fruit?


Whole different topic,,,,,,,, never mind.

4/3/2014 5:39:17 PM

lancaster ohio

I'm not completely ruling out adding mycro at first. But once added to the soil once we should never have to use it agein. All we have to do is maintain a proper cover for the soil with organic materials that do not have to include manure and it will colonize on it own just like it did 450 million years ago when the first plant reached dryland

4/3/2014 5:45:36 PM

Waterville, Ohio

It sounds like comforter composting for your entire growing area, with a new way of wording. But, why not try a conventional patch and a "Back To Eden" patch? Keep a diary, keep your schedules, amendments, fertilizers, etc, constant and see what the pro's and con's are from your personal experience.
Best of luck to you, keep us informed! But, for God's sake don't say your method is going to produce the first 2,700 lbs pumpkin. If you're looking to stay in the hobby for a period of time, make freinds and learn all that you can from your fellow growers before you make predictions.

4/3/2014 6:05:30 PM

lancaster ohio

I plan on making a diary for Bella in the back to eden method. But with this being my first year growing one lets face it I have a lot to learn. Although this is my first year growing pumpkins this is not my first rodeo grow plants. I understand that growing organically may have its challenges but I would rather learn how to do it organically than learn how to throw my hard earned money into a hobby/sport using chemicals that have a negative effect on nature. Nature has provided us with a way of working together where we both can reap the benefits not just one or the other. So if there's someone out the that understands the economical benefits of learning how to grow these giants organically then please feel free to chime in anytime you like.

4/3/2014 6:28:38 PM

Waterville, Ohio

Mehdi Daho does everything organically. I believe, the Larues implement no-till in their plots. I'm sure there are many more growers out their using the 100% organic method, but these are two top notch growers using methods similar to what you want to implement. Make your e-mail available to them via a new thread and try to get into contact. I'm sure they could give you a heap of advice pertaining to AG's and help you along your quest.

4/3/2014 7:59:37 PM

Concord, CA.

R.B.,
I'm an apprentice grower entering my third year. I can tell you that there's no magic growth product & no shed full of plant steroids that the vast majority of these growers use to create their impressiy large pumpkins.
It's the acoummation of (freely shared) knowledge, making extremely accurate adjustments to their soil's nutrients and having intensely studied & planned from the genetics of past pumpkins that have produced the massive fruit that we see to this date.
I for one can stand up and say that what I do in my urban patch is in no way a threat to the environment because of the use of non-organic products. As a material of fact, I can't even find compost that is "clean" enough to want to place into my patch. Yes, I have used non-organic ferts., but in moderation so as not to throw off the balance if my soil.
Many, if not most of these folks get at least one soil analysis report annually in an effort to better understand how to "fine tune" their soil's nutrients. Believe it or not, but,keeping it simple is better. (Again, no new magic chemicals are secretly being employed here)
I'm not sure just what the Eden method of growing is, but I do know that some of the world's finest agricultural and gardening minds have come together here on this site and on other similar sites to promote this sport. I urge you to read everything that you can find here, justly assess the advise and info that these fellow growers offer to us before you blindly settle on a method of growing that may become a disappointment. Think about it, there's only so much that you can do, or change from season to season in an effort to grow the big one. Unless your immortal, you don't have enough years to re-invent the wheel here. Give yourself the best opportunity you can to grow that giant pumpkin that we will all envy. You have some good ideas, but their not the only viable ones available to you.

4/3/2014 8:08:43 PM

Elk County, PA

Still didn't answer the bug, disease problem.

4/4/2014 12:35:26 AM

Concord, CA.

BravoV2,
Your quite right. There's so many different things that factor into a successful season that a totally "pure" approach is unrealistic. This is why I've tried to suggest to R.B. that he should learn from all the contributions here and combine the best ideas for the most success.

4/4/2014 12:54:03 AM

lancaster ohio

Wouldn't neem oil or some sorta pepper spray help keep the bugs away? And if I'm thinking right the wood chips mixed with grasses would cause a chemical reaction to break down. That process should keep most of the critters away. That will defiantly be a challenge I'll have to face head on

4/4/2014 7:23:21 AM

Upa Creek, MO

Not squash vine borers, anyone east of the Rockies in their range knows they cannot be controlled with neem. They lay eggs everywhere, usually on the leaves, and will burrow in EVERYWHERE including the pumpkin, but would rather have the hollow vines. They make their way through eating and quadrupling in size severing your plant in about 100 different spots. They are so hard to control because they are IN the plant. If you grow in a greenhouse, you can go organic... much easier in terms of insect prevention, wind hail, etc.

4/4/2014 7:30:14 AM

Farming- a bunch of catastrophies that result in a lifestyle

Neem works great for me on a lot of bugs- but NOT vine borers. While it does effect them the same as any other bug, they bore and lay eggs faster than the neem oil suppresses there natural bodily functions. I'm pro Neem oil, but I have to use another insecticide for those little beasties.

4/4/2014 9:06:08 AM

Hinckley MN

why are you avoiding manure? Manure is the most natural of fertilizers.

you could use vine borer traps along with a neem oil/pyganic/insecticidal soap mix. 10% milk spray can be used as a mildew prevetative/cure, so can baking soda.

You will need to seperate the growing fruit from the fungi decomosing your wood chip mulch, otherwise they will just invade the much more nutritious fruit instead.

4/4/2014 9:27:51 AM

Elk County, PA

I think you won't find anyone here who doesn't wish organic was more effective. You could try burring most vines with sand, using remay fabric, and fans.... It definitely wouldn't bring more bugs.

4/4/2014 10:46:07 AM

Wixom MI.

I finally had to cover my pumpkins with a bug screen due to the lost battle of both the vine bore and cucumber beatle. It will cost about $400-$500 to cover each plant, but I never had to spray anything on them last year and that was the first time since 2002 that I had a pumpkin survive the season from disease. I hope that in about 4-5 years that it will pay for it self on the savings I will have not spraying for them anymore. The bugscreen material is 10 times stronger than screen door material. Look at the wwgg site if your interested in it.

4/4/2014 12:44:24 PM

Hinckley MN

Back to Eden method is just Lasagna Gardening with a religious whitewash. It is just sheet composting that people have been doing for a long time. I have done sheet composting and the soil is slow to warm, hinders seed germination, and is only moderately productive. It will grow pumpkins, just not world records because the plants will have to search for the nutrients they need instead of having them handed to them on a silver platter. It does require less water, both due to the mulch and the reduced transpiration from less leaf surface area.

4/4/2014 2:39:39 PM

Menomonie, WI (mail@gr8pumpkin.net)

So Ben like a Prius in Nascar?
:)

4/4/2014 5:15:27 PM

Upa Creek, MO

Im thinking more a Prius in a Monster Truck Competition.

4/4/2014 5:47:35 PM

Stanwood, Washington

I think another thing to consider is that there really is nothing at all "natural" about Atlantic Giants. Without significant human involvement the seeds are not even capable of sprouting and if they did They wouldn't last long or produce much in a natural state. Over the years AGs have been selectively bred and the genetics have been fine tuned to a point where they are heavily dependent on a specific man made micro-ecosystem. There is nothing natural about the genetics of the plants so It's not necessarily correct to assume that a more natural environment is what is going to be the most successful way to grow a giant. I think the Eden Method is very viable for many types plants and has its place in gardening. I just thing that AGs are so far beyond the realm of normal gardening that a lot of things simply have to be thrown out the window.

I don't think its will work but Like I said it doesn't hurt to try. Even if its not a complete success you may learn that some aspect of the Eden method may help out with growing AGs.

4/4/2014 6:51:59 PM

lancaster ohio

Ok A lot of what you guys are talking about makes sense. I will give this a shot and if I have a question our concern about something I'll ask. Thanks everybody for your inputs they were takin with a spoon of sugar. Much appreciated.

4/4/2014 8:27:21 PM

lancaster ohio

Be sure to follow my diary. I will be updating it periodically. I'm out in the sticks with just a cell phone internet and it's slow. Bare with me

4/4/2014 8:29:14 PM

Netherlands

I have grown more or less organically since 2007, have never tilled, never used fungicide, etc. Mind you, we don't have vine borers here.

In 2007 I grew a WR squash and a short-lived European record pumpkin. After that, each year the pumpkin weights went down. In 2009 it was 1135, in 2011 it was 947 and in 2013 none got heavier than about 450 lbs.

So now I have bought a roto-tiller, renewed my soil, bought myco and will see if I can get the weights back up.

4/5/2014 3:14:17 AM

lancaster ohio

That's awesome! Are you planing on tilling every year or just gonna wait for the pumpkin to tell you. I would like to know if it does better after tilling or not. Thanks for sharing that. I didn't think anybody that has mad an impact organically was gonna show up

4/6/2014 6:30:29 AM

Ireland

As far as I know the biggest French pumpkin was grown organically.

4/6/2014 9:11:01 AM

Hinckley MN

Crop rotation will be your best friend. Vine borer traps and scouting for borers in vines will be a necessity. I like to use mixtures of pyganic and insecticidal soap rotated with a mix of entrust and jms stylet oil for insect and disease control. I also use an organic listed pyrethrum/ copper dust when temps are low and milstop or greencure for mildews. I use them on my naturally grown berry farm. Actinovate and companion as well as other beneficial bacteria like biota max will also help. The best wild blackberries I have ever seen grew in a pile of 3 year old shredded tree trimmings. The best blackberries I have ever seen are the ones I grew in pots last year. Berries bigger than my thumbs! Hopefully they survived the winter.

4/6/2014 4:55:24 PM