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Lodi, California

I've heard several people say that clones (or cuttings) are only good for pollinating other plants. I have also heard people say "whats the biggest pumpkin that a clone has produced?" Well, in my oppinion, I think people are being a little too quick to judge clones, because, if you think about it, how many clones have been grown out there as a fair pumpkin? What disadvantages does a cutting off of the main vine have to a planted seed? About 3 years ago, when I was growing big maxes, I had one plant with a fruit on the vine. Sometime during the season, the vine was severed. The main pumpkin continued to grow, but another pumpkin was formed on the severed part of the plant, which was now a cutting, as it was completely detatched from the main plant. Despite this, a late pollination (about 1/2 of a month after the main pumpkin),a smaller plant, and I could also say, a fairly neglected plant, the pumpkin on the clone was only slightly smaller than the main pumpkin at harvest. This might be evedence that clones off of the main, and perhapse even clones off of side vines, might be just as good as the real deal. This is just my oppinion. I would like others to share their non-biased oppinions about clones. Thanks.

12/31/2013 12:27:00 PM

BC, Canada

Clones are biologically identical to their parent stock. So, there is no biological difference. The difference(s) are culture or environment. If you wanted to clone a AG, you would have to start very early in the season. The possibility of disease increases and there is some discussions I have read (not for AG) that senescence may be decelerated, not what we want for pumpkins. Maybe if there was only one seed from some very special plant?
Nursery stock of numerous plants are cloned, the marijuana industry has taken cloning to a fine science. I do dozens of cuttings=clones every year of my nursery plants.
So, there is no disadvantage, maybe, but I don't see the outright advantages of cloning for our hobby, unless some plant was obviously beneficially different, As a winter grow exercise perhaps.
Good post, should be some good discussion.

12/31/2013 1:46:12 PM

The Port

1725 Sweet, if I remember correct. 1161 clone

12/31/2013 2:35:19 PM

Colorado

Clones are the best % bet for breeding a trait into the next seed stock(better odds than seed). The cutting itself doesnt grow a big crown root system that a plant from seed will. Thats why fruit grown on cuttings havent grown much bigger than 1000 lbs.High % genetics is why some growers are big on my 282est. seed. Its as good on paper as you can get genetically and will have the root system that can get the job done. Sorry I'm almost out of them.

12/31/2013 3:49:29 PM

Whitehall Montana

Cojoe are you going to do anymore clones?

12/31/2013 4:14:45 PM

Connecticut

In short clones simply have not been tried on a large enough scale to compare them to the large sample size we have for seeds. In some of my experiences because with a clone (cutting) there may be some treatment differences in the early stages that can help them reach their full potential. I have noticed that clones do not like to be cold especially in the early stages of transport.

cojoe has done some great breeding work with some of the material I have been able to keep alive over the winter. This may be the best option with our current practices to breed the clones to produce seeds that most growers know how to treat for maximum success.

I have tried to keep track of some pumpkins produced from clones and a pattern that I noticed was the pumpkins produced by clones tend to get heavy (even if the original pumpkin grown from the plant material did not).

Here are 6 pumpkins grown from clones...

Not Pictured
890.9 K. Adams ’11 (F:1161 Rodonis clone [grew 1725] x self) 21% heavy

http://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=173182
850 G. Adams ’11 (F: 1161 Rodonis clone [grew 1725] x self) 19% heavy

http://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=173183
832 A. Berard ’11 (F: 1385 Jutras clone [grew 1064] x self) 11% light

http://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=173184
767 J. Post ’11 (F: 1385 Jutras clone [grew 1064] x ??) ??% heavy, Joe did say it went heavy but I am not sure of the exact number.

http://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=173185
650.5 N. Petti ’11 (F: 1421.5 Stelts clone [grew 1663] x open) 10% heavy + Howard Dill Winner

http://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=173186
616 C. Horn ’11 (F: 1421.5 Stelts clone [grew 1663] x 1004 Moore) 14% heavy

12/31/2013 4:44:35 PM

Colorado

Slim email me @ scherber56@msn.com I might be able to help you out if you promise not to breed with a banana squash-lol

12/31/2013 5:57:22 PM

Massachusetts

SORRY BUT THIS IS OFF TOPIC, I just want congratulate you ashton, your command of the English language is so unbelievable for someone your age, I keep reading your posts over and over, and wow, you are a special person, I showed my 13 year old son some of your posts and he was impressed with your knowledge of words , keep it up ashton, your a genius. and good luck this year bud.

12/31/2013 6:43:37 PM

Midway, UT

I'll be growing a 335 Scherber next year which a cross of a clone of the plant that grew the 1725 Sweet crossed with a clone of the plant that grew the 1663 Zollener. My son grew this seed last year and it was very impressive. It is one of those seeds that flew under the radar and begs to get planted. In my mind, as Joe stated before, creating crosses with clones allows you to control what you will get in the next generation and increases your changes of getting big progeny. Unfortunately there haven't been many good attempts at doing some nice clone crosses. 220 DeBacco is a good example of a good one however that turned out. I hope to cross my 335 with a clone of the plant that grew the 2009 world or the 282 that Joe mentioned earlier. I would love to see more growers do some quality clone crosses.

12/31/2013 7:47:22 PM

Hinckley MN

bring out the clones!

12/31/2013 11:49:17 PM

Central Illinois

A plant can lose its integrity from stress, if clones of clones are repeated over many generations, it may take hundreds of of these reproductions, but sometimes it may only take a few.

Usually stress is from the growing environment, lighting being one of the biggest, type of light ,amount, on/off cycle.

It has been over 8 years since I have cloned plants , I must have done a few thousand, and have seen plants decline over generations

1/1/2014 9:55:17 AM

Eurasia

Mr. Scherber, your 282 will definitely pollinate a 48" Pink Banana this year. And it will be done in the USA, while I will use better AG genetics from a pure stretto 935 Lloyd to enlarge several pumpkins out of the banana group and some cylindricals.

1/1/2014 11:50:56 AM

BC, Canada

I see I put "decelerated" in my post above- it should have been "accelerated" senescence.
I started to write what I know about it but then I realized it is just easier to post a link;
http://jxb.oxfordjournals.org/content/52/358/1117.full

The other fear in large nursery stock propagation by cuttings (cloning) is getting a virus in the tissue, not cureable. So, some original healthy parent stock needs to be held back and isolated. But with AGs, I can't see hundreds of generations of the same clone ever being done as the strain selection seems to be moving rapidly.
Arvada, what is the lineage of the seed you refer to that "begs to be planted" Is it the the 335 or the 1663? Maybe explain, I'm just curious, thanks.

1/1/2014 1:25:46 PM

Midway, UT

Cavitysearch the 335 Scherber is the seed I'm referring to. It was a clone cross from three years ago. The cross is 1421 x 1161. Joe grew the seed two years ago and it had a nice pumpkin on it but the spot it was grown on at the bottom of the patch was a bit of a swamp and small. My 7-year-old son grew the 335 this last year and it was a great plant. It was grown on about 150 square feet of almost unprepared, virgin soil and most of it wasn't tilled. Even with a 7 year old's care that pumpkin got to 429 pounds and went 15% heavy. I wish I had grown that seed. I'm going to be growing it this year.

1/1/2014 6:59:41 PM

The North Coast

I do agree that a pumpkin clone created from a tap rooted vine will not have the root structure of a seed grown plant. However I believe that a clone generated from the last 4 to 5 inches of a vine and then treating it with a quality rooting hormone would be an improvement. Whether or not it would live up to the parent plant I am not sure, but the issue comes down to hormones. A good cloning gel may create an explosion of roots that may exceed a seed grown plant.

1/2/2014 1:21:00 PM

Ontario, Canada.

I had a big squash fruit about 8 years ago or so off of a cloned plant that went down at the end of July at 555 Pounds.

1/3/2014 6:59:20 PM