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Whitehall Montana

Is there any relationship of pumpkin size from where the seed was removed from in the pumpkin.ie blossom end,stem end.Would the first seed to develop have more genetic material then the last.Does seed placement in the pumpkin make any difference?

11/28/2013 6:08:43 PM

Western ny

I don't know that blossom end or the stem end was any better ---don't know that any one has tested that ---don't know if hard proof is posable

11/28/2013 7:26:23 PM

Whitehall Montana

ThankS Andy,I have not seen any discussion about this,but with all the size differance in pumpkins,and no telling which seed is a big one,I was just wondering maybe it also could be the position it grows into.

11/28/2013 8:11:54 PM

Mnt.pleasant ,tennessee

Sorta often wondered that myself from cleaning feild pumpkins&gourds.it they seem smaller from stem&blossom end uniformal increasing in size till max point in middle.even clean all varius sizes threw out the years. It seems tho all the seeds start at same time.

11/28/2013 8:45:08 PM

Minnesota

I asked that question once also, nobody knew the answer, someone should do a test?

11/28/2013 10:20:56 PM

Whitehall Montana

I think it would be time consumeing,but may lead us in the right direction into which seeds are genetically best to replant.From what I see,so many growers are looking for that silver bullet cross,and this may give everyone a better distiction as to which seed is going to a greater grower.

11/28/2013 11:28:19 PM

BC, Canada

I have doubts that the genetic material of a seed can be assessed, or assumed, by its position in the fruit. Which grain of pollen from the male flower that manages to land on the stigma that forms that seed would be vary hard to calculate or control.
Are some seeds more "healty" or perhaps have more initial vigor based on position in fruit?- maybe. I think that any vigor advantage over other seeds that may exist would only be initial as so many other factors determine plant and eventually fruit size. I can't imagine how you could be certain except by numerous repeated test. And a controlled test probably won't be done, unless of course you got room to grow dozens of plants.
Interesting question anyway.
Here's a good article about basic seed genetics and saving, pollinating etc.
http://tomclothier.hort.net/seedsav4.html

11/29/2013 2:22:35 AM

Germany

The seeds at the stem end should have a higher probability of having been pollinated by one of the most aggressive pollen (which had been there first, which actually managed to get there), and therefore, out of the genetics of the pollinator plant, the higher probability of finding a larger fraction of agressive genetics should be in the seeds at the stem end. From the plant itself, i.e. the female part, I would expect a much more random distribution of the genetics across all seed sites within the pumpkin.
That´s just a guess.
Rather than growing hundreds of pumpkin plants under exactly the same conditions, this question might better be answered by DNA tests...if students need an interesting project, or for a PhD thesis.

11/29/2013 2:54:34 AM

Germany

Of course, the above mentioned is based on sort of a controlled pollination (i.e., sudden availability of plenty of pollen...more than needed for complete pollination and availability of pollen within a short time frame).

11/29/2013 2:59:21 AM

England, essex

(The seeds at the stem end should have a higher probability of having been pollinated by one of the most aggressive pollen)
and the ones at the rear have more stamina?

11/29/2013 6:53:25 AM

Germany

That´s a good point actually, but how do we tell them apart...those pollen who aren´t the race horses but have more stamina and those who are at the rear because they are just weak and nothing else? Anyway, I agree that the growers who pay particular attention to NOT growing a race horse type seed should then better look at the seeds from the opposite side of the pumpkin (i.e., from the blossom end). The slow pollen might still bear more stamina, no doubt.

11/29/2013 8:08:05 AM

Whitehall Montana

Super complicated,and I sure dont have room to grow a mass amount of pumpkins to do this,but next year I will retrieve seed in certain order,and mark down position.This will mean growing kin for some time,but might be interesting to do so.Thankyou everyone for your input on this.

11/29/2013 11:09:43 AM

BC, Canada

Pumpking, interesting answer, as much of what you post is, thank you. I still have doubts that attributing some anthropomorphic qualities to seeds actually transfers to a real understanding of fruit size and plant vegetative growth (if by "aggressive" we mean faster leaf and root growth). Which grain of pollen gets there first? Talk to the bees, or the AG grower with the male flower in hand, to make sure they hit that stigma that is at the stem end of the fruit first. I actually have spent a bit of time watching bees in squash flowers. I know, pretty exciting life! Anyway, I have noticed that on a squash flower they tend to land on the inside of the flower and go at the pollinating from the sides as much or more than from a straight on missionary position. And even when I do the controlled pollination it is by rolling the male around on the female as much as punching straight at it. Even if left to wind the randomness is huge. Also, a more aggressive pollen could mean an early maturing pollen, so yes it may get there first. But that quality might yield an earlier maturing fruit, which might mean a smaller fruit.
It is really complicated.
DNA testing will more than likely be done -eventually, I can hardly wait for that home "do it yourself" $100.00 DNA tester.

11/29/2013 11:40:15 AM

Ontario, Canada.

There was a discussion years ago about this.

It was more or less, on which segment or pistil would the best offspring come from.

The conclusion as I recall was similar to what is posted above. How would you know for sure without doing a documented growth study on all of the seeds and from which location they came from within the fruit.

Could be done with an army of students a Lots of acres of plants. But who would ever undertake such an effort.

11/29/2013 2:12:45 PM

Mnt.pleasant ,tennessee

I disected 10+ culls this summer to see how stamen&seed chamber related .well ecach part of lobe is in line with each rung of seeds in the chambers.2seed rungs per chamber 2peices each lobe.then in center of stamen if u cut of ,there was a duct way that tapered half way down in seed chamber,seeds there before pollinated also.it look as tho it was the port for pollen.into to chamber sorta like embrionic sack&filled from were entered in the middle of chamber. Maybe thats why the middle seeds are bigger.there getin 1st shot.

11/29/2013 2:58:26 PM

Cincinnati,OH

There was a study done on pollen competition.
http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0003-0147%28199310%29142%3A4%3C694%3AEOPCOP%3E2.0.CO%3B2-N
I'm not sure if this link still works.
I downloaded it in 2007 in a pdf file and saved it.

11/29/2013 7:56:26 PM

BC, Canada

Ron, thanks for posting that.
Wow!
Slim, you might be on to something.
I just read that study that Ron Posted and it does suggest that seeds from the stem end may have more vigor - when there is a heavy pollen load. This is possibly due to the competition among the growth rate of the pollen tubes, the more aggressive growers win, and this translate into measurable qualities in the progeny.
Hopefully a few other people read that study and post their thoughts.
One thing I got form it (maybe?) is that a heavy pollen load may lead to stronger progeny; so, is the fact that there has been a lot of careful hand pollination among the AG community in the last few years one of the factors in the increasing fruit size that we are seeing? That is, we are artificially creating these "heavy pollen loads" and inadvertently selecting for more aggressive pollen, and so heavier fruit?
Interesting
And I guess I take back everything I said previous, obviously the only sh*t I know is in my compost pile.

11/29/2013 8:38:47 PM

Whitehall Montana

I have only been a grower for two years,and have had some help along the way from Arvadaboy and seems to me that ,if your soil and fertilizeing program is perfect,that only leaves the seed and weather.Well there is no way to control the weather,so maybe we can establish where to get the best seed by its placement.

11/30/2013 4:13:00 PM

Germany

@cavitysearch: That´s why I had added the comment
"Of course, the above mentioned is based on sort of a controlled pollination (i.e., sudden availability of plenty of pollen...more than needed for complete pollination and availability of pollen within a short time frame)", because then a high percentage of the seeds will be pollinated by the most vigorous pollen, which grow their pollen tubes like hell, and the stem end seeds will first be reached by those pollen with the extremely vigorous pollen tube growth. Can´t wait to see when in auctions "stem end seeds" will pop up...

11/30/2013 5:25:00 PM

Colorado

Don't forget that the fruit is only a inch or so long when pollinated. Hard to equate vigour to that-maybe just better aim. Ive noticed that the seeds in the blossum ends can be more filled out than the others-I dont put any value in it. I'm fully capable of picking the worst seed regardless.

11/30/2013 9:50:23 PM

Whitehall Montana

cojoe I believe you are right about the blossom end having more developed seed as thats where pollination begins,and I too seem to pick the worst seed from my kins.This next year I will start with new seed with better genetics,and have spent more money and time on my soil this fall as my soil is pretty poor here in Montana.We have a big open pit gold mine I can see from my house,I may have better luck finging gold then growing giant pumpkins.

12/1/2013 3:07:30 PM

Eurasia

@ Slim
I grow the best edible field pumpkin C. pepo `Gold Gem´ with my little son Bertold Carl, named after the biologist Berthold Carl Seemann who owned a bold mine at last too...after he travelled around the world sometimes and a sugar cane plantation in Venezuela as his property.
Do you want to grow our pumpkin gold in Montana?
We will send seeds for free, if you write to:
ludwig.ammer@gmail.com
Our variety is a little faster then Gold Gem normally grows: 95 days istead of 105 of the greater (15" hight) commercial variety in the US. Our´s developes only a hight of 10".
We grow in a climate similar to some regions in Montana here north of the Alps.
But a word to this thread: we often see better matured seed both in the middle of blossom and stem end.

12/1/2013 4:03:14 PM

Whitehall Montana

pumplobster Thank you for the Gold Gem seed offer,but only have a small trailer house lot,which leaves me 540 square ft to grow on.I plan on splitting that for a 1220 johnson and a 695 Johnson this year,and will try harpin protiens on them.If I can make some more room,I will contact you.I am very pleased of your offer.

12/1/2013 10:01:18 PM

Eurasia

Oh yes, Arvada Jamie Johnson grows real worldclass for us, who have to fight with extreme cold wheather and don´t want to grow only in a greenhouse. My nine years old son also has his best seed from Colorado: he selfed this 922 Mohr 11 two times.
The 1220.5 Johnson 13 could grow or pollinate a New World Record, but the 695 from - I think the same age - Elbert Johnson is more interestingly for my son.
I thank you Slim for mentioning this pumpkin.
And we wish you great success with your great seed from Colorado.
Slim, we would feel honored, if you grew our first slim giant in 2015: next year we will pollinate F1 and F2 of the selfed 922 with C. maxima Pink Banana.
You know, Pink Banana is a popular variety in Hungary, and we got best seed from a professional grower there to grow it in southeastern Germany now.
F2 of the 922 grew pretty long without dillrings and seems to be the best mother for elongation with the pollinator Pink Banana to grow slim.
Our problem is, that strong men wanted to make a contest with giant pumpkins, but they can not handle normally grown AGs without straps.
Pap, that´s no doubletalk!

12/2/2013 4:42:25 PM

Little-TON - Colorado

Hey Slim,

Check out the RMGVG Club Membership.....and you get lots of them COLORADO seed genetics in your club bub.... www.ColoradoPumpkins.com
CoJoe Seeds, ArvadaBoy and much much more....LG's Pepo.... workin on a new Weigh Off in your state... Great way to get more growers growing as youll have more seedZ than you can plant in yearZ......

12/2/2013 4:54:54 PM

Whitehall Montana

Wizzy I have gone back and forth 2 dozen times about joining the RMGVG, and know I would never be able to make a weigh off there,but sure would like to join anyway and still might just do it yet.I joined our local club,but its still 4 hours away and winter is setting in.We have a possible 1-2 ft of snow in the passes,and I believe 15 below on wed morning,,so no travel for this here guy.You may get my membership soon,I just have to decide.

12/2/2013 5:36:06 PM

Whitehall Montana

Ok Wiz the checks in the mail,and sure can use the seeds too.I have 2 new growers I will be working with next year and really need the better seed so as to keep their interest peeked.

12/2/2013 7:02:13 PM

Whitehall Montana

pumplobster it would be my honor to grow your your slim giant in 2015.I will do my best effort possible.I feel very honored you asked me.

12/2/2013 8:48:15 PM

Eurasia

Slim, don´t you change your user-name here.
So I can not forget to send seed then.
But now I have a new plan: at first we want to grow the stretto 922s and pollinate them with Triamble ( tri star ).
Seed of the best triamble-like AG fruits will be pollinated with C. maxima banana group ( North Georgia, Orange Banana, Pink Banana...) in 2015.
And so you will be able to grow a F1011-TriStar-like fruit in 2016.
Is that ok too?

12/3/2013 10:17:46 AM

Eurasia

sorry: L1011!

12/3/2013 10:20:25 AM

Eurasia

Nice 922 grows Lucky Ten Eleven.
I think I should crossbreed that in 2017 with my B52 ( via stretto from Hoffman´s AGs breeded near Seattle WA and in Europe) in both directions.
My B52-pumplobster is a deep orange to red wheel and had a turbaniformis dumpling in F1...so the banana-genes should come through this way and make a rocket out of the wheel.

12/3/2013 10:38:15 AM