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Hinckley MN

Did any top 50 pumpkins have low seed counts this year?

10/31/2013 1:43:51 PM

Midway, UT

The 2328 Meier was reported to have a very low seed count.

10/31/2013 5:35:10 PM

Muddy Waters

Chris Stevens had a low count in his 1783

10/31/2013 6:14:31 PM

Western NY

My 1461 had 4, and those look iffy. 1406 had about 50. Fingers crossed for when the 1480 gets opened.

10/31/2013 6:37:16 PM

Joliet, IL

I haven't drop tested yet but 395 that look good and feel solid completely formed shiny tan seeds from my 1546 (1421.5 stelts x 1381 checkon). About 50 that feel solid and are 75% tan and 25% with the tan outer shell missing and white tipped but still feel good and white tips not flimsy. Those are called my last reserves. All soft half developed flimsy seeds tossed. Obvious empties tossed. Very happy with this count. Pollinated in cooler than normal weather with morning temps in high 50s and day time high about 70 and cloudy.

10/31/2013 7:20:46 PM

Lloydminster/AB

I have a patch that is low on N. it grows big pumpkins with low seed counts. Maybe low N?

10/31/2013 10:22:48 PM

Corryton, TN

Found this research. It leads me to think that low seed counts MAY have something/more to do with inbreeding.

http://www.scielo.br/pdf/sa/v61n2/19366.pdf

11/1/2013 7:18:22 AM

Menomonie, WI (mail@gr8pumpkin.net)

I don't believe the low seed count to be due to breeding for one second.

11/1/2013 7:28:08 AM

Corryton, TN

Why?
I tend to believe results where there doesn't seem to be any pre-determined conclusions. After one generation of selfing there was a 38% decrease in seed count. I'm not saying this is the only reason but if you factor this in in addition to some plants carrying the ms-1 (Scott and Riner, 1942b), the ms-3 (Korzenwiewska, 1992) and many others documented and not some of the problem is surely breeding. Maybe not all.

11/1/2013 9:32:21 AM

Menomonie, WI (mail@gr8pumpkin.net)

I think pollen viability and proper fertilization is more likely.

11/1/2013 11:30:31 AM

Corryton, TN

That is my point. The ms in ms-1 and ms-3 stands for "male sterile". These genes are in C. maxima. Do they act totally independently and produce sterile plants or males, or do they work with other genes that we're not aware of yet that only causes partial sterility? I don't know. I do know that I had 2 plants this year that would not set a fruit nor would they produce viable seed in other kins. I like both crosses and hopefully get a chance to plant them both in the spring. Both worked and didn't work for other folks as far as being fertile this year.

11/1/2013 12:28:17 PM

Deer Park, WI

The genetic vs environment debate as it applies to seed viability will stretch into eternity. Or if someone drops the coin to perform a well designed scientific study.

I do believe continual inbreeding has the potential for influencing seed count/viability. Is it happening right now? cant answer that.

I also believe that nutrients affect seed count/viability. Manganese and boron are both associated with the development of good seeds. Deficiencies can lead to problems.

I also believe environmental factors contribute to seed count/viability. In which case Shannon's suggested that pollen viability, fertilization technique and conditions on the day of pollination will all have some degree of impact.

Throw all this in a blender and what you're left with is a myriad of potential contributors to seed count/viability.

as humans, we gravitate towards reductionism...the premise that there's a single, simple explanation to questions. Biology is perhaps the best defiant of that principle...the answer to why any one grower's pumpkin is deficient in seeds is a question so complex its beyond our ability to answer definitively.

11/1/2013 7:29:38 PM

Minnesota(dw447@fastmail.fm)

Joze(Joe),
I respect your knowledge. I just have a question regarding inbreeding, and it possibly causing lower seed counts. If you look at C. Maxima squash, such a blue hubbard, buttercup, etc.; don't they usually have high seed counts? These non-hybrid squash, I would think, are much more inbred than our A.G.'s., as they produce true-to-type fruits, if self pollinated.
Does the early process of inbreeding sometimes cause lower seed counts, and then as a genetic line becomes more stablized, do they typically get a better seed count?

11/1/2013 10:35:24 PM

Deer Park, WI

Thank you, Doug.

You pose a great question, and frankly, its beyond my level education/experience. If I dare step into the realm of speculation, one could assume that blue hubbards, while consistent producers may not be all that inbred, in that the pool from which these lines have been derived may have continually had enough genetic diversity to avoid inbreeding depression and achieve consistency.

One could also speculate, as it relates to giants, that to trace genetic lineage even back a short ten years, an overwhelming number of today's seed can be traced to a very very limited number of parental stock (935 Lloyd, 723/845 Bobier, 1068 Wallace)

Its kinda like the "Noah's Ark" Syndrome, where circumstances greatly reduced genetic diversity, leaving the current population much less diverse, potentially creating an environment for the manifestation of intensive inbreeding.

again, all speculation.

11/2/2013 7:20:34 AM

N.c.

This year I took a 1286 Hester X Self and grew a pumpkin on the main and one on the back main. The pumpkin on the main I crossed with the 972.5 Finders using males from the main vine. It produced maybe 50 beautiful, large, full, deep carmel colored seeds and almost no little white undeveloped seeds. The pumpkin on the back main I crossed with the 972.5 Finders using flowers from only secondary vines. The pumpkin was full of average looking, carmel colored seeds as well as a multitude of the little white undeveloped seeds. 

11/3/2013 6:02:15 AM

N.c.

P.S. I pollinated both pumpkins on the same day.

11/3/2013 6:04:41 AM

Eurasia

@ Don Crews
If there is no genetical flaw, nutrients have to be examined. So you´r right, but you have to know that in most such cases manganese lacks in the mother plant and pollen tube can not grow even there is enough nitrogen to build up aminos.
Since pumpkins often suffer too much nitrogen in soil, I fertilize amino acids onto the foliage.

11/3/2013 7:17:08 AM

Saegertown Pa.

Pumpkins that go heavy to the chart tend to have lower seed counts were light pumpkins tend to have better seed counts. for the most part people tend not to grow light pumpkins but ones that go heavy. this breading practice has given us denser pumpkins but might be one of the factors to more lower seed counts.

11/8/2013 9:40:46 PM